Anthony Dapolito: An Oral History Interview
An Oral History Interview with Anthony Dapolito
Conducted by Vicki Weiner
October 5, 1997
ANTHONY DAPOLITO: He’s not really taking care of it this guy.
VICKI WEINER: Of the primeval forest?
AD: Yeah, Alan Sonfist, he’s there and he’s not really, you know?
VW: Why, is he the person who is responsible for putting it there?
AD: No he’s the one that proposed it. So at the very beginning he was looking to go around Eighth Street, eh, Washington place, whatever, you know.
VW: Right
AD: So I said to him, nah, you don’t want to get up in that area.
VW: Yeah
AD: And we had a problem here, with dogs and everything, and I said, go over there, I live in that building, but I didn’t live there then. And I said…
VW: Oh right you live in 505 right?
AD: Yeah, I’ll get to that building. Many years ago…
VW: Hold that thought, let me see if this is working.
VW: Well there are a couple things that I was thinking of. I’d love to hear what your perspectives are and I wonder…there are events that we’re studying that I don’t know if you were involved in them, but would love to hear your perspective if you were. One of them is the closing of Washington Square Park to traffic; and I wondered what your involvement with that issue was.
AD: Directly involved. In those days I was either chairman of the board or President of Lands Roses Association and, uh, Moses proposed the 48 foot depressed roadway to the park and naturally we were all against it. Now by being against it we were in other words on a day-to-day basis fighting with the city. We don’t want it; there shouldn’t be a depressed roadway, cause then they still have a roadway through the park. They still come through.
VW: Right the buses…
AD: Yeah the bus. In fact it’s funny, a fighter that became popular later, Tony Pallone, who fought like Bonnie Ross and some of the big fighters – he was a good fighter -- his little brother was killed in the park at the southern end there. One of the buses killed him. He used to live on Thompson’s Street
VW: So they grew up in the neighborhood?
AD: Oh sure, we were there. Cause at the southern side of the park you also had these hubs were the horses would take off. We used to have those like 50 years ago. And the buses would come down 5th Avenue and through the park and turn around there, at the southern end and then would go back up. So we were opposed to it -- the whole community. In those days, the Washington Square Association, which is there now -- Elsa Steiner, she was the executive secretary; well a lot different than today, uhh can I talk about this…
VW: Yeah sure
AD: Yeah, well its history. In those days Elsa Steiner would go to every Board of Estimate meeting, and in many ways to the Board of Estimate, she was representing the whole community opinion. That’s what happens. Cause you’re there all the time and something comes up, she’s there to answer. And they were very aware of the Washington Square Association and things to do with the park and the Greenwich Village Association, but we were all opposed, so we were all negotiating this whole thing with the city, that we don’t want it. Shirley Hayes comes up… you remember Shirley?
VW: Yeah sure.
AD: Well she’s the one that really did it. So Shirley Hayes comes, she has four sons, I don’t know if you know the story about the kids? Shirley was on the Community Board and she was chairman of the Parks Committee before me. Back like in ‘56, wow that sounds long ago. So Shirley came out and wanted the park closed. Her kids were going to school; yeah I was talking about the kids. Shirley would be at meetings complaining about like, we don’t have playgrounds for tots, maybe. And then the kids kept growing older and older so then she’d be in there fighting for like, I don’t know, a little playground for older children. And then it was the elementary school, and then it was the junior high school, and then “We don’t have a high school in the Village!” It’s funny, she was very aggressive.
VW: Right, so as her kids grew her issues grew?
AD: Right, very aggressive, very good looking, you know, she was nice. She’s probably old now. Shirley must be 70 years old now.
VW: Yeah, we’re in the process of tracking her down so that we can talk to her.
AD: Yeah, a lot of people forgot about Shirley. So we were negotiating and we got it to the point where maybe it wasn’t going to be depressed. And maybe it wasn’t going to be 48 feet -- it was going to be 36 and then we got it down to 30 and meanwhile, here is Shirley saying, “close the park to traffic!” And she was organizing like PTA; she had a lot of petitions. So with all the support, she started getting like William Pazanetti on her side, Leo Colaco, who was, in fact, he was chairman of the Community Board before I was, like 57’ 56’ something like that. And he was on the local school board, owns property in uhhh, not the mews…
VW: The gardens?
AD: McDougal, uh what do they call it?
VW: McDougal Alley?
AD: McDougal alley yeah, he was rich. His family made money in fruits and vegetables. He was a big lawyer, little guy, but he was very aggressive. He’d yell at all the meetings, you know? But she got his support at the beginning and little by little, she had Ray Rubinov, Edith Lyons. I don’t know what happened to Ray. That was so long ago, he might have passed away… You know some of these people?
VW: Yeah, we’ve been doing research on them.
AD: That’s amazing
VW: Yeah in fact I interviewed Edith Lyons, and we also interviewed Norman Redlick
AD: Oh Norman knows everything.
VW: Yeah he knew a lot about it.
AD: Oh sure. He told you who closed the park?
VW: Well he talked a lot about Carmine Sapio.
AD: Of course.
VW: What’s your perspective of that story?
AD: Oh he did, sure.
VW: How did he do it?
AD: How did he do it? We kept fighting…he was the county leader. In those days, we were blessed in the Village, where the local leaders had political power. We had DeSapio and we had MacNeil Mitchell, the republican leader who the district leader. He was in Albany; he was the chairman of the city affairs committee. They pulled weight, so whenever they spoke… Carmine, I mean, he got Wagner elected mayor, he got Abel Harriman to run for governor. Ya know what I’m saying? So they had power. When they went to Carmine, I dealt with Carmine on other issues. He would always say, “Tony you sure 51 percent of the community is for this?” It was very democratic. All the stories about him – believe it or not - he’s the nicest guy in the world.
VW: Really?
AD: Yeah, you think, oh he went to jail, he’s a burglar and all that, but Jesus, but not if you’re dealing with him. He would talk to you. Ask about your family. He was such a decent guy, really.
VW: Yeah, we’re hoping to interview him also.
AD: I doubt it, he don’t get around that well. His cousin hangs out with me, his first cousin. Carmine’s mother – they had about like four, five sisters, so they’re all cousins. But they all got different names, like De Orio, De Sapio, Capone, Moriello.
VW: So the sisters married into different families?
AD: Well yeah when you marry you take his name so the five sisters…you know what I’m saying? They used to come down here like Easter; they’re like family. They go downstairs and make Easter breads.
VW: Oh great.
AD: They mix the dough home, they uhh, they almost renamed me cause I’m very friendly with them. And when they’d show up, I almost got to the point, we’d make Easter breads ourselves. And I’d do theirs on a Wednesday instead of doing mine you know, to cooperate because they didn’t really know how to kneed the bread.
VW: They needed a little help?
AD: Ha oh yeah they’d come down like 7, 8, 10 of them and we’d make the Easter breads.
VW: So you were very close with Carmine at that time too?
AD: Well the family, cause they come from the neighborhood and when you grow up in an area you know the sisters, the brothers, and Carmine, he was of course the political club and I was never part of any political club.
VW: No? Why not?
AD: Oh I don’t know. To me, I’m a community person, I’m a civic leader, whatever you want to call me, but I would never get involved politically. In fact once, this guy Louis DeSalvio, he was the assemblyman for about 38 years, he got like a record, in fact Pazanetti, I think might have retired, I don’t think he broke Louis’s record. Once, I don’t know, out of a clear sky, I was told I was a county committee member. I was elected or whatever, I don’t know.
VW: They appointed you?
AD: Well they put your name down when they vote. I don’t know how I got to be -- so I call up Louis and I say Louis, what are you doing? No I can’t be a county committee member. It was a lot different then. Even today, I’m not happy with political leaders. They shouldn’t be in that position.
VW: Yeah, they shouldn’t be.
AD: I mean member of the board is one thing, but when you’re chairman of committees and stuff like that…
VW: Yeah it’s a conflict of interest.
AD: Yeah that’s my opinion. So I say to him no, so he sends this co-leader, Marie Lafaro or something, to my house, when I lived around the corner here at 432, one night, and she made me sign a letter saying I resign.
VW: Haha right, no thank you
AD: Yeah, no, cause then you have got to be neutral. Nobody’s neutral, but then you know, you got to promote that image. You’re running a meeting and you got to be fair to both sides. I might agree with you but that doesn’t mean I got to show it. That looks terrible, for the chair I mean. And a lot of times privately you have your own opinions but you can’t never show it. You’re dead.
VW: So with the issue of closing the park, were you…?
AD: Oh so we were fighting, no I was in the community position. We didn’t want that roadway through the park. So what happened, as we were fighting, the organizations – the strength of the community, the village chamber of commerce; we were all together. We were having meetings and we were fighting and we finally had it down to 20 feet. A 20 foot leveled roadway to go through the park. Meanwhile whatever Shirley did and people agreed with her, and they were fighting to close the park. Edith Lyons, they weren’t really the organizations in the sense, I’m talking organizations. We were fighting; that’s what I was involved with. But Shirley got involved and she had all these people supporting her. Now the day before, on this phone, this same phone, Tom Lawless, who used to be Hulan Jack’s top man in the Board of Estimate, I mean I know names, I remember them and I dealt with him on other issues that I could tell you about, we could take nine hours, we’ll never get finished, but on the phone, we’re talking about it and I said, well tomorrow it’s up before the Board of Estimate and what do you think is going to happen? He said, “Oh they won’t close the park.” Imagine! He’s the Board of Estimate man. I doubt it very much he says the way it looks now and so on and so on and so on and so on. But that night I think DeSapio must have called Hulan Jack, Wagner had become mayor in other words he was the mayor and Hulan Jack was the borough president and the next day when he got down to the Board of Estimate, they closed the park!
VW: So Carmine called in a couple of favors?
AD: I think so. Carmine was -- well he talked to him all the time. He talked to Hulan Jack; he got him elected, in a sense. You know, I support you and you become the borough president. It doesn’t have to be like I’m bossing you.
VW: It’s like I need something, I can come to you. It works like that now I think, a lot of things in politics do.
AD: Oh I think so. I could tell you another story about Hudson Street with Jane Jacobs. That’s in her book. But even Jane didn’t know the story. But her husband knew the story. I told her husband.
VW: What’s the story?
AD: Well her son is out on Hudson Street, this is 40 years ago at least, and he sees somebody writing down some figures and he says “What’re you doing?” and the guy goes “Oh we’re going to widen the street.” So the kid goes in and tells his mother and Jane gets up in arms and the neighbors, we don’t want the street widened, more traffic, whatever. So Jane called me up. I was chairman of the board then. Twelve times I was chairman of the board. In those days…I’m bragging… but I was it. Like I remember once there was a story in the newspaper Paul Douglass, the senator from Illinois, his son lived here on Charlton Street. I don’t know if they still own the house. He’s a big shot now, with a big company all that. But I met his father of couple times in that house. But in that newspaper, some magazine wrote an article and it said the two people with the most power in the village - Paul Douglas and Tony Dapolito.
VW: Wow that’s documented. Well you were a presence on the Community Board whether you headed it or not.
AD: Yeah, I did a lot of things. A lot of the things now, I don’t believe that I did then. I mean it. To be Chairman of the Board 12 times, how did I get elected 12 times? Know what I mean?
VW: So you were telling the story about Hudson Street.
AD: So Hudson Street. And they were after us, Jane. So what happens, Hulan Jack got into some kind of trouble for a couple of months and deputy Paul Chiaffe, he became a judge later, he was a deputy borough president while he was gone. So one day the father’s club of Lady of Pompeii, they used to have the father’s club put on a big show. I mean they would pack the auditorium, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday, and maybe twice on Sunday. Unbelievable. So Sunday, DeSapio comes to the affair and I was a friend of his so you know, I say Carmine, the people on Hudson Street, they’re going to widen the street. They don’t want it. Will you talk to Paul Chiaffe about it? And that’s why I remember he said “You sure 51 percent of the people don’t want it?”
VW: He wanted to make sure there was a majority.
AD: No he was like that. But then, Hulan Jack comes back. So one day I go up to the Borough President’s office and I’m in there with Hulan Jack, Tom Lawless, Stanley Rolls who lived on 12th Street with his public relations man, 3 or 4 of his people, you know. I said Eulan, we got this problem - Hudson Street- they don’t want it. So funny story, Tom Lawless comes over. He’s now dead, these poor guys you quote them and they’re dead, they can’t defend themselves. But I knew Tom. He lived out in flushing, I used to go over there; he lived next door to my friend.
VW: Just as a coincidence?
AD: That is a coincidence. He used to be head of the American legion. He moves out there next to Tom Lawless! So I visit Vinny on a Sunday and Tom is next door! But he was a good friend. So he says, “but the engineers…” You got the engineers and the architects making all these plans and half of the time they don’t know what they’re doing. “They think its necessary, can’t you get the people on Bleeker Street to complain that all the extra traffic is going to go onto Bleeker Street?” I say Tom, you’re making a big story. We’re going to have two groups fighting each other in the same neighborhood; it’s the same story. Hulan’s listening and at one point he says, “it’s okay, we’ll kill it.”
VW: Just like that?
AD: Yeah he’s the Borough President. It’s in his borough. He says that’s it. It’s a true story and nobody else can tell you that story cause of who was there. So anyway he says, “go back and tell them its all okay.” I don’t want to do that, I say why do you have a meeting in your office. I’ll bring the people up, we debate it back and forth and then, you do it. So I set up the meeting I go up there, Jane Jacobs, the husband, Rochelle Wall, who was Chairman of the Board also, not at that time I don’t think. So Rochelle, the guy that owns the Lion’s Head, Leon Sydel, all the priests I guess from Saint Bernard’s and from Saint Luke’s. So anyway we go down there oh and besides when we fought the project there, he had just become Mayor, I mean Borough President, in 53’. So I open the meeting naturally and I say so were here, you’ve been very kind to our community, you helped us save the south village, and now we’re here for another problem, Hudson street so and so and so. I turn it over to Jane, she makes a speech, someone else makes a speech and oh yeah before the meeting, the guy that was the deputy commissioner of traffic, uh his son plays for the football giants, uhhh Grovel! He was the deputy commissioner and he comes in, we’re waiting for the borough president. Have you ever been in his office? In the municipal building.
VW: Yeah I have been there.
AD: Yeah you go in and his office it’s a big large room. So Grovel comes in and he says “Tony, what’s up?” you know. So I said, come here. And I take him to the big room and I explain it to him. And he’s there to defend the city. It’s like going to court you got the prosecutor and the judge. So he says to me, “ Its reasonable,” and I say yeah they don’t want it there is no use making a big story so he says “alright Tony,” and so during the meeting, 4, 5 people talk and so Hulan Jack says, “lets hear now from the department of traffic.” So he opens up and he’s almost agreeing with us. The engineers, so and so and after a couple of minutes Hulan Jack says, “Okay it’s done. We killed it.” So they’re cheering and all that. So I tell Bob Jacobs the story, in fact, that same day. Oh I talked to Sapio and Hulan and it was all set up and the meeting. I mean I could have just gone back and said look, it’s dead but then people say “could you get a letter, are you sure, will they bring it back?”
VW: Sure, but also, it made the community feel like a part of it.
AD: Oh sure and the Borough President deserved it. He was black, I don’t know if you know. Its funny I have pictures. When he ran, in 53’ would have been when he ran and got elected, so that would have been like 57’ when he ran again, right, 4 years. When he ran it would have been 57’. Mostly my money, I erected up the street a sign for him. This community thanks him for saving this community and we support him for borough presidency. I’m sure I got a picture of it someplace.
VW: Could you talk a little bit about the saving of the South Village, which happened earlier, In the early 50’s, or the beginning of his first term?
AD: Well 1950 is when I got active. When I got involved there was a guy, Lillian Hardway. His father was killed by Guy Lombardo, which is another story; you know the big band leader. In Queens someplace, this guy is walking with his wife, or his girlfriend, and Guy Lombardo hit him with a car and killed him. I always remember that when I think of Lillian. But I grew up with him; they lived on this corner, owned the building. Right on the corner of Prince and West Broadway. They bought the building which would have been on the northwest corner and they’re there for many many years. Now what’s on the bottom, stirs? or spurs? or…
VW: Yeah I know what place you’re talking about.
AD: That was Lillian’s Hardware. “From a tack to a telegraph.” That was the sign over the doorway.
VW: That’s fabulous
AD: And I used to play with his brothers. We’d play out here in the street like catch ball, hardball. I mean baseball, bang, bomb, ya know.
VW: Where did you live as a kid, when you were growing up?
AD: Right here! I was born on Houston, moved around the corner when I was 6 and lived there almost all my life. When I moved my father moved around the corner and my back window, in other words the building is still there I could show you the window, apt 11 used to face, through the back there, if you look through there you can’t really see it, back there through that window about 50 feet, there’s a big alleyway. In fact it was a parking lot, they just blocked it up they put a building. That used to have 3 buildings in the back now 60 years ago 70 years ago I don’t know, they tore down those buildings so there was a big lot. And we used to play behind there, yeah, and uh, what was I saying?
VW: The Lillians.
AD: Oh yeah, I was telling you my window faced that lot. Now my father moved from there and moved to this building on the first floor here, where the back window faces that lot. I got married, moved around the corner to 432 where the back building faces that lot. Oh like for 60 years … isn’t that crazy. And then I lived there till I moved, 13, 14 years ago to 505. But with Herb, I walked over there on a Saturday, my mother was here then, she was alive, and I said what’s the story there’s a big sign on the window. It said, “sign the petition for the project.” Now I was active but in another area, like not really in the village, let me put it that way. I said what’s that and he said “Tony , they’re finally tearing down the whole neighborhood, this is a petition, and so and so.” I said all right, if I can be any help, I’m here. And he said “well in a couple of hours they’re going to have a meeting over at the Truman’s Hate Society.” See, so I go over there and I remember Teddy Jammond, the president of the Greenwich Village Association, was there; now this has got to be like almost 50 years ago, it had to be 50 or 49. And she was there and other people and they were discussing the neighborhood. “We have to do something,” they said, “they are tearing down the whole neighborhood.” So after they got done with the discussion, which to me was the first time I really was with villagers, they said there’s going to be a meeting tonight at Our Lady of Pompeii, 5 O’clock. So I go to that meeting, see I’m getting involved. And they’re all making speeches and they’re all big shots, and I’m nobody. They don’t know me, know what I’m saying, to be honest. So in those days Parazzo, the undertaker on Bleeker Street, the father John Parazzo, they’re all dead, Johnny just died, the young son, good-looking son, he just died. They carried a lot of weight. So at that meeting, they were all there, and Sapio, I don’t know if he was there, he was probably there, and Camero, the Supreme Court judge, who started the art show.
VW: Wow
AD: Oh yeah he was great; he was born just around the corner, community minded and everything. And he became a Supreme Court judge, local, I mean, I don’t mean up in Washington. And George Bragalini, and later on, talk about weight, when Truman became president he became the New York Post Master General. That’s the Sapio. Oh sure, that’s all they talked about. You read the papers. They make you laugh, now they’re saying, even Guiliani, Koch, my friend he says “Patronage!” Come on what do you think its all about?
VW: Of course
AD: No its bad if you give a person a job if they’re not qualified but don’t you think when Carter became president, he had a lot of guys from Georgia? Who do you think he’s going to put in? And its ridiculous, but that’s how it works. Uhhh ohh yeah, so at the meeting, he says well lets organize the Lower West Side Civic League.
VW: The Lower West Side Civic League?
AD: Yeah that’s the group that fought the project in other words, so uh they said “how about the board of directors, we elect them,” and whatever, they weren’t really elected, and the guy said “how bout George Bragalini, how about Judge Camero, how about this guy?” And they got together like 15 people but not me, who knew me? So I go home and there was this one guy, and he might have been on the Board of Directors, Ermelino, he had a place, Ermelino Oil or something, a fuel oil business and in fact, today one of the sons is still involved in real estate and his daughter Louise, writes television shows.
VW: Hmm interesting
AD: Yeah, she lives up the block. So he comes by and we had the bakery and up the street we had a little luncheonette. Yeah, when my mother passed away my father and I bought it, and my younger brothers. It didn’t work out that well, half of the time it ended up I had to be there. And so I’m in there one day and Ermelino comes by and he says “Tony they had a meeting of the Lower West Side Civic League, and they realize they had nobody below Houston Street.” See most of the strength was from that area, you know around Bleeker Street. those blocks, you know. So he said, “your name came up and they said could we invite him to come to the meeting?” That’s how I got involved. Can you believe this? So I go to the meeting. And the guy says Al Cylio, who was limp from the war, I don’t know, his leg, he was limping, I don’t know; he used to sell cars, in fact, with a brother in law of mine. So Al Cylio doesn’t show up at the meeting. He was one of the guys on the board. He was the secretary and so one of the guys goes, “Where’s Al?” Who’s going to take the minutes? Right, so I show up and I become the secretary. I said I’ll take the minutes. So I became secretary of the Lower West Side Civic League. And we fought the first project. There were two projects, see.
VW: And who was behind the first one?
AD: Same thing, Moses, oh sure. The first one I think they wanted to tear everything below Washington Square Park. Might have just been on this side, I forget the location. Down to Spring Street, see.
VW: They wanted to clear the whole area?
AD: All these buildings, sure. You know where Washington Square Village is? They wanted to do to this area what they did over there.
VW: All the way to the Hudson River?
AD: No no no, Sixth Avenue. And West Broadway. And that area, which is now above 505. All those buildings, which are now NYU, above Houston, looks like what’s below Houston. They had hat factories; it was all factories. You know what I mean? So we fought and defeated it. And Parazzo, Sylvo Parazzo, we used to call him the Human Dynamo- he was something.
VW: Was he the president of the Lower West Side Civil League?
AD: No, Martini was president, John D. Martini. And I think it was that first fight. Like we were fighting and for instance, we had the stuff like Moses who said in that area 20 percent of the apartments don’t have a toilet in the apartment.
VW: That was Moses’ reason for wanting to knock down the buildings?
AD: Oh that was one of the points but they had a lot of facts and figures. But I sat there and I’m sitting at the thing and I’m saying, 20 percent don’t have toilets or 15 percent, just to use that figure, but do you know that 85 percent of the apartments do have toilets?
VW: Right, you have to look at it the other way around.
AD: So I go back to the meeting and I had a clique then, you know you start to get friendly with some people, Charlie Pagella, who later became president of the art show when I left. I was president of the art show one year you know? You know, qualified people. We used to sit together, go to the restaurant up the block, and we’d go back to the meeting and the civic group had, you know, people like Angel Maricini, whose grandfather was involved with the Children’s AIDS society, one of the buildings was called the Maricini building, believe it or not. He was involved in the neighborhood, but then he was a big shot uptown, he made money, you know. Maricini, what was the other guy, uhh there were two or three lawyers, and Fontana, I remember. So they were going to go in and fight and uh the president, you know when you get in an argument back and forth, we used to say well why are you tearing down, like we used to say, go to empty lot, build a building, move people from here to there and then tear this building down. You can’t throw people out, that was the big thing about Moses.
VW: He just wanted to clear it?
AD: Yeah, well he would, that’s how they did it. They knock a lot of people out on the street and we felt why should people suffer. They’re throwing all these people out of their homes, that’s the big fight. But at one point, we got into this big thing with Martini, you know you keep discussing it with the opposition and before you know it, you get roped in. Anyway, he left and we got Nick Rossi, who used to be an assemblyman a million years ago, with a tiny accent, you know an Italian accent, but what a gentleman. What a nice guy he was, Nick, everybody loved him. Ah and I digress, but Nick used to run a spaghetti dinner at the Children’s Aid, he was a captain, like not the district leader, he was under Carmine and all them, uh so on election day, it was mostly Italian this neighbor hood. So the Children’s Aid was 99 percent Italian, the children and everything. So he would get the chefs and all that and they cooked spaghetti with sausage and everything and he’d invite everybody, including the mayor. And we’d go there, like two in the afternoon, or whatever, and sit down on these tables and we’d eat like pigs. And you meet all these guys. Like once I spent about two hours with Mayor Wagner and his wife. Oh yeah, so that was a nice thing. But Nick Rossi became the president of the Civic League and he knew everything because he was political, so we knocked out the first project.
VW: How? What was the final decision?
AD: They just knocked it off for restudy or I don’t know what the words were, but we won. We were against it but City Hall, they were against it. Now Moses he must have said, “That area I’ll fix it. Most of the power is on Bleeker Street. You know, I’ll grab the ones down below.” So he comes back with a project, he makes a deal with NYU; he’s going to put in a project from Washington Square Park to Houston. West Broadway, now it’s LaGuardia Place, to Mercer St. Give one block to NYU, the first block, 4th Street, and put in housing there. And he came diagonally now, from Houston to Broome Street and West Broadway to Sixth Avenue. So it was one chunk up there and one chunk down below. So we’re fighting again. And we go to a meeting and one guy gets up, Joe Delfino, I think, and he says, “ I move to make Tony chairman of the fight.” Here I am now, chairman of the fight. And I was working in the bakery, working nights and days, and I’d go out with the sound truck at night. I used to make tapes.
VW: The Sound truck?
AD: Yeah we used to rent, from Columbia Sound, I still remember, rent a truck and the guy would come down, you’d pay it, whatever it was, cause we raised money, and you have a tape recorder, something like this and you’d amplify it and so I’d make a tape first, you know I’d say, “remember tomorrow we march,” or whatever, and so you have the tape, you get in the truck and you go block to block. You park on one corner then you go to the next corner and the message would go out. Oh sure, we’d do crazy things.
VW: That’s not crazy, that’s very resourceful.
AD: I think back, I don’t even see that today. We had a meeting one Saturday afternoon, like twelve thirty, in the church here. On the Thompson street side, cause they had two churches, downstairs it was saint Anthony upstairs I don’t know, upstairs was a church too, they made it a big meeting room there. But on Thompson street in the gymnasium actually, we had a meeting and I’d be out like 10:30 in the morning with the sound truck saying remember 12:30 meeting, come out of your house and go to the meeting. Imagine that, you don’t see that today.
VW: Was it effective?
AD: Effective! We jammed the damn joint. But was funny as I think back, you’re growing up and you accept it, I do all the work and I get to the meeting and no one even knew I was there.
VW: So you were behind the scenes more than anything?
AD: Oh sure, because they were important. What do I rate next to the Sapio in those days?
So they get up there and they run the meeting. The Judge or Bragalini- he was tough, one of those real outspoken men. They ran the meeting, they got up, said “we’ve got to go to city hall next week and so and so and so forth. That’s when I befriended Hulan Jack.
VW: During the second project of Robert Moses?
AD: Yeah, that’s when he was running for Borough President.
VW: Oh, what was he before he was Borough President?
AD: An assemblyman I think. See he’s running for Borough President and he came and I remember one of the meetings I met him in the street and we were talking about it. We’d go out with the sound truck at night. Then I’d go to work in the morning. I was working night and day. In fact there was a guy, never in my life, a Benzedrine tablet or something, he said “take this, this’ll help you.”
VW: Oh like a stimulant
AD: Yeah, Jesus, good thing he didn’t give me dope. But anyway, finally when we got down to the end, see there were a few proponents. Say it was next week; they’d say they were going to put it off until two weeks later. And there was a printer around the corner, Gimelli’s, and we’d print these big show cards, which we’d go around and stick in windows.
VW: Oh to show people the status of the projects?
AD: So I’d have to make new signs they’d say “Next Thursday City Hall,” don’t forget, then that was postponed. So the last one I think I said this is it. So we had to go to City Hall and it was postponed from previously, I guess the new administration. Wagner took over January 1, 1954, right, yeah, and Hulan Jack took over as Borough President. So they put it on, it was January 26, 1954, see we had to go down to the Board of Estimate, and there was a group from the other side, which is now Washington Square Village and Jonny Pachello, and we had a guy, I hate to talk about him, he was disgusting.
VW: He was on the other side?
AD: Nah, he was with us. You know when you wind up with a Ku Klux Klan. Not that he was Ku Klux Klan; he was maybe the opposite. Ugh you can wind up with someone, you’re working with him and then he turns out to be the worst guy in the world. And he was like that. We found out later he was an Anti-Semite. Oh my god, he used to go on the street and Jesus, if you go back 10, 15 years, he would come around once in a while he had this little kiosk with names on it and he’d say “the Jews did this, the Jews did that,” and he’s out there, and I used to chase him. I couldn’t stand him I said John you’re nuts half of my friends are Jewish, what are you talking about? He used to up on like 10th Street and 6th Ave, and he got arrested like 90 times or something. Well sure, he was an aggressive guy, you get out in the street and you say the Italians stink, they’re all guineas or some stupid thing, someone is cuckoo enough to come hit you over the head. And he was involved then, as a researcher, the guy was terrific. He was an educated moron. He was really smart. He worked for lawyers, he used to do research for them, and he wasn’t stupid. You had to be careful, he’d rope you in and if you agreed with him you were in trouble. And chances are several times you were going to agree with him. So he was the head guy working for them so you know we arranged like on the Election Day we were going to have 12 buses cause they had more money than we did. The manufacturers, the guys with money they said all right we’ll pay for the buses. So we had 6 buses over here in front of Saint Anthony’s and 6 over on Bleeker and West Broadway.
VW: This was the day the Board of Estimate was going to make a decision about it?
AD: Right, and they were going to load those buses up with workers. So we arrange to have a mass at Saint Anthony’s church. Eight thirty in the morning. Uh, so it was all set up but we did other things like in the public school, I mean Saint Anthony’s they had a daycare in case the mothers had to go downtown. There were other things we did. So we get to church and Hulan Jack comes to church. Eight thirty in the morning he shows up for mass. We’re at the mass and Jonny Parazzo now, Slyvio’s son, and he’s out there with me and he says “you got a pretty good crowd.” And I’m disappointed I says, Jesus there’s nobody here, what crowd? There’s nobody in church; its half full and I really was upset, I mean I was the guy breaking my chops; they weren’t really involved that way, with the sound trucks, the posters. Oh we had handbooks, we put out to the city planning commission, enough to change the zoning. See before they put in a project it had to be residential. See it wasn’t residential. So months before, and maybe it was wasted, but we had people writing postcards downtown saying, “do not change the zoning.” And I remember an Old Italian guy down on Thomson Street. I made him sign the postcard. And in Italian he said, “I signed the postcard, wasn’t that enough!” But in Italian it’s funny. I always remember that you know. So that morning about quarter to 9, ten to 9, all of a sudden I know what happened. Uh its emotional, I don’t know where they came from; the mothers marched.
VW: Oh so people started to converge?
AD: Oh my god that’s when they showed up, around 9 O’clock. And there was a place on Broome Street, where they killed chickens, they used to sell them, that’s what they did then, there is still a place on Center Street. They used to sell hens, chickens, but they would kill em in the place and the lady was a tough looking lady and I remember her walking down with ladies all near her *stomp *. They were packed, the buses, we had no room. I said, call Charlie, his buses were empty! So we got them over here, loaded them up, and went down to city hall. We went down there-forget it- we were on line; we couldn’t get in. So ten O’clock, when the Board of Estimate starts, 10:30, whatever, the first item on the agenda starts, first of 20, whatever, they went boom boom boom then to Washington Square Village, which was before us. And we had buttons, “Save our neighborhood,” I forget now, but we had buttons to identify us. So we’re down at City Hall, they got like 30, 40 speakers, and they went on and on and on. And the people are there and we’re the crowd. So at 1:30 in the afternoon, Hulan Jack walks up, and he says, “Tony, those buttons, uh” I said oh yeah they’re from Mary Sincovich. That’s what it was.
VW: From Greenwich House?
AD: Yeah, they were going to name this project after her. Mary Sincovich, yeah yeah, oh sure. I said no, that’s us you know? So he’s looking around and he says, “Who the hell’s from the other side?” They got all these speakers, know what I mean? So as time went on, we’re loosing our crowd. Mothers had to go home, its 2 O’clock, you know? So they come out, Hulan Jack, assemblyman Louis DeSalvio, and senator, Joe Marrow. See he was a state senator, like Catherine Abbott now. So they come out in the hall and say, “listen, we could get the project pushed back for restudy.” Now that I think back, who the hell was I making decisions? But they said, we can do this, get this pushed back for restudy, what do you think?” And they left! I heard later, they wanted to get Herman Stitchman, who was chairman of the State Housing Commission; in fact if you go to 505, I think his name is on the plaque. But anyway, so they went to get him out of a barbershop later.
VW: That’s where they went when they left, to the barbershop to go get him?
AD: Yeah. They listened to me, and they thought well I guess that wasn’t happening. So they left. They said all right. So by 6 O’clock, they’re going to hold the hearing. They had recess and Mayor Wagner said, “ hold it a minute, we’re going to take up another item and we’ll get back to this.” See.
VW: So they’re still on Washington Square Village at this point?
AD: Right, so they’re holding that item and they’re going on to the next and Herman Stitchmen, Yes! So he comes up before the Board of Estimates and honestly he says, “we’re drawing the project.” I swear! He says, “We’re drawing the project and that’s it.”
Cashmore from Brooklyn, the borough president, and we had a guy from the Bronx here, Lyons, I think; see I remember some of those names. Cashmore starts insulting him. He says, “Are you kidding, we spend all this money to start this project, so and so, you never speak to the people, you don’t know what they wanted.” He’s knocking his brains in. And Lyons from the Bronx, they really took off on Stitchman. So finally Hulan Jack says, “ I move to end the project, I second it!” Boom boom boom boom boom, the whole Board of Estimates.
VW: Wow, dead.
AD: We we went wild. I remember Rossi, who knew them all really. It wasn’t like me getting up there, who knew me? So he got up and he said, “Can I make a statement.” So he said some thank yous and blah blah blah. As we came out of City Hall, before 5 O’clock, we’re saying we’re loosing our whole crowd here. By the time we’re going to be on tonight, which it turned out, we weren’t, we’re going to have nobody here, so the buses, which we had all day, came back to the neighborhood. It’s funny, and started to go through the buildings, saying we need you down at City Hall. So when we’re coming down the stairs of City Hall, they’re coming in!
VW: Same people from the morning?
AD: Yeah a lot of them from the morning. Some who got home from work, like the men. And we’re saying no it’s okay, we won! And they’re all going nuts. The buses are coming around with the horns, you know what I mean?
VW: Wow
AD: This must have been around 7, 7:30 and I left to go home to sleep. Got two hours, I had to work nights. So I’m working downstairs and around 11, 1130 something went down. Louis DeSalvio walks in, the assemblyman. He comes down the steps and he says, “Tony, they lost, the other side.” We won, but they passed the other one. That’s how I found out, Louis DeSalvio told me.
VW: And what did you think of that?
AD: Well we were against it, no no, we were against it. They were going to tear down buildings where people are, and factories. Because, later on, the MYCOVE, I forget the woman’s name. They were trying to put in a project here, from Houston down, middle income housing, which we need! But they were going to tear down all those buildings. And the community board- I was chairman.
VW: Was it something that Carol Greitzer was involved in? Cause that is familiar to me, but I cant remember.
AD: Might have been. That was the beginning when they started 30 years ago. I don’t remember her being involved. I was directly involved. You see there’s a big difference there sometimes; you know it’s like the chairman of a group. A lot of times a guy will say “Oh, I was in the Lower Manhattan Expressway Project,” and who’s ever seen him at the meeting? Now maybe mentally, they think they were, they went to a couple of meetings, they carried the sign, but the chair, you’re directly responsible. You’re having the meetings; you’re doing the stuff. What’s his name, Robins, what’s the name of that guy, he just died, did some housing in Brooklyn, theNehemia houses or something? Uh Jesus, well he was the guy proposing it. And I had a debate while I was chairman, I remember. We were opposed.
VW: And this is after the Moses Project?
AD: Oh sure, because before that I wasn’t active. That’s when I got active. Because right after we won the project, about a month later, I got appointed to the Community Board. I didn’t even ask. And Phil Lombardo, the president of the Greenwich Village Society, he’s a lawyer, I went to school with Phil. He called me one day, around Easter, isn’t that funny. He said, “Will you come over the Greenwich Village Society to be chairman of the housing committee?” That’s how I wound up…all of a sudden, nobody knew me, and now they’re calling me up over there, the Community Board, I got appointed 1954. I’m on since 54. I’m the longest serving board member in the city. That’s how I ended up getting active in that area. So after I got active on the community board, a couple of years later, uhh 3 years later, I became chairman and we had all these other things.
VW: Yeah, the MYCOVE thing, could you go back to that a little bit?
AD: MYCOVE, that’s what I’m getting back to. The City Planning Commission, that was only in this area, SoHo.
VW: And was this connected to the Lower Manhattan Expressway Project?
AD: No, nothing to do with it. Completely different, see. So the City Planning Commission did a study, the guy from city planning, one of their top experts, and agreed with the Community Board. We thought there were a lot of factories, you got a lot of workers, minority workers, what are you going to do, throw all these guys out of their jobs? So we were holding firm and city-planning commission came up with this study that agreed with us.
VW: To remain manufacturing? And…
AD: Right, that you cant throw all these guys out of their jobs, so I started a debate before the Community Board and Friedman, and uh what was his name, he was a good man, he was for houses, and oh sure but we were against it. So MYCOVE never happened. If it had, we’d have no SoHo.
VW: So the MYCOVE project was to tear down everything?
AD: Oh yeah, and put up housing, maybe cheaper, but they always say middle income and then you always wonder where middle income is
VW: Exactly.
AD: So that’s how MYCOVE was ended. The Lower Manhattan Expressway Project was to connect the Williamsburg Bridge with the Holland tunnel and oh my God that goes back like 35 years. A long time see, and everybody was against it. They would have come down Delaney street, tear down all the south side. People lived in those buildings, a lot of Jewish people then. So you come down and you get to Kenmare, and Lafayette and all those buildings are in the way. That’s SoHo, and they would have torn all those buildings down to bring the Holland tunnel through. And so we fought it, and…
VW: How did that fight begin, do you remember?
AD: People were all opposed and…
VW: You were chairman of the board at that time?
AD: Yeah, the second fight, the first one I’m trying to remember. We won and we even had a party in Ratner’s restaurant. We won the fight and then they came back at us with another one. Within a year. And then there was the World Telegram. The newspaper, that’s how you can figure out which year it was- from when the World Telegram shut down. Oh yeah, you had the Daily Mirror, The Graphic, the New York Evening Graphic, and the World Telegram; we had a lot of newspapers then. So the telegram was running the story then, that’s how I remember reading it. Uhh Erestoff, Connie Erestoff, the father is on the MTAs I think, but the son, he was a councilman. He was a republican from the uhh Stuyvesant town, that area, up above, whatever. So he was the commissioner of traffic I think, highways. So they propose, it’s in the newspaper, a new project. So there we go again, we’re fighting it again.
VW: How soon between fights, like immediately after?
AD: Oh yeah, like a year later. Oh sure. So it comes back and we used to meet, and I became, myself and Hy Hamlets from Ratner’s Restaurant, became Co Chairs of the citywide organizations against the Lower Manhattan Expressway. See, we’re local in a sense, but it’s the same thing we did in west village, like Jane Jacobs said, “Why don’t we have an umbrella group,” you know. They were involved too.
VW: The West Village Committee?
AD: Well not the West Village Committee per se, but people from there, like in other words, Estolia, Rochelle Wall, cause we worked together. When they had their problems in the west village, I was there helping them. We’re community workers. We don’t look, uhh we just did it. So we set up, Rochelle Wall, she’s in a nursing home now, that poor woman, the work she did, she used to call me almost everyday, once, twice, and she became chairman of the board for a couple of years, which is a story on the side, like how she got elected. It’s funny because I was supposed to be chair, but I don’t want to get into all of that.
VW: All right, we’ll go back to that.
AD: So we had this group, and we used to meet. We had LENA, which is the Lower East Side Neighborhood Association. It was a tremendous group, but they’re not there anymore. They had a federation of all the lower east side groups. And sometimes we met in Mayor’s headquarter, I think on Suffolk or Ludlow, one of those streets there. Right near Ratner’s Restaurant. And one night, here again is how you remember dates. They shot Martin Luther King. You want to hear a quick story about that?
VW: Sure
AD: In my building around the corner, our super, the boss, the landlord, was Mr. Frank, but his daughter, Frida was married to Jim Goldstein. Jim and Frida Goldstein, they were my landlords, and they lived on the first floor and I lived up on the 3rd. And they shoot Martin Luther King, 5 O’clock, I don’t know. And by the time I come down, I’m going to the meeting, it’s like 7 O’clock and they got the door open, and I say geeze, did you hear what happened, and Frida and Jim say, “Oh My God,” and Frida turns to Jim and says, “I hope it wasn’t that Jewish guy that shot him.” And I look and say, I hope he wasn’t Italian. Forget about it, the whole race. So I left and went to the meeting, and there were people there who had worked with Martin Luther King, activists, one guy used to run the university, I forget the name, and there were a couple there crying- “Oh we knew him well and so and so and so.” That’s how I remember that night. So we went on and we organized and Rochelle, she had a lot to do with it. Big Shot me, I ran the meetings. There were a lot of people there. I chaired the meetings; Hy Hamlitz would sit next to me. I was more involved with the community than he was, but oh what a nice guy. He’s still alive I think, I hope so. So the last day we went down to the City Hall and they even had the, oh what do you call it, the union, some union. They had a lot of people picketing to pass it. To make jobs, you know? So we went down there and we fought it and we won. And then we had another celebration.
VW: A lot of victories! In all this time, did you ever meet Robert Moses?
AD: No, although there were many times…did I tell you the story about the playground around the corner?
VW: Tell me again.
AD: This goes way back to 58’ or whenever, Hulan Jack promised Father McManus from Saint Alphonsus church. It’s not there now; they tore it down, and put the SoHo Grand. That used to be a church. You know about that?
VW: Yeah you told me a little bit about it.
AD: Oh yeah, so there was a church there for many years but it was sinking a little by little. Yeah, because of Canal Street; there is a canal under there. So they found out the church was sinking a little, like a half inch so they had to sell it. So the guy bought it and now he’s got the SoHo Grand on that property. So he promised a little playground, on the corner of Canal and 6th Ave. With a little basketball court and all that. So that’s when I got a little involved with the playground. So Hulan Jack got into the details. They were trying to put a playground adjacent to 6th Ave, near Third Street. You know the area? Where do you live?
VW: I live on 13th Street between 7th and Greenwich.
AD: Oh yeah. There was a library there on the corner?
VW: Yeah, yeah.
AD: Is it still there?
VW: The building is still there, but it’s become a gallery. So they wanted to do the same thing over there?
AD: Yeah, you know where the basketball court is. The next two or three buildings, they were going to tear them down. See, where the Blue Note is. The Heat wave, no, what was it before? The heat something, before it was the Blue Note. And across the street was Tony Pastas, and the owner I knew, Joe. So there was Tony Pastas and on 4th street, there was the Pepper Pot, and then next door, there was a building there and that building would have had to go down and 40, 50 people lived there. If you go there now, there’s a building still there. From 6th Avenue, going two, three blocks. They were going to tear that down to enlarge the playground. Now Joe’s Tony Pastas, these were nightclubs; they used to get big acts there. So there’s this guy, John Lawrence. John Lawrence was involved. He used to go in and drink once in a while. So the guys tell him they are going to tear down those buildings. And he gets involved. In some ways he may be responsible for what happened to me. Because that’s what happens. So he goes down and says, “they’re going to tear down those buildings on 4th street and lot of people live there and some live on 3rd.” Though his primary concern was the nightclubs, they were going to get torn down also. See, so what happened, they figure out a way to stop this stupid playground that they were going to build, which was already passed through the Washington Square Association, Elsa Steiner, downtown.
VW: And they wanted it?
AD: Yeah, they were only really involved in south village mostly. Most of them were 5th avenue people.
VW: Who originated the problem?
AD: Parks department, oh sure, they come up and suggest it. Or maybe it’s just a good way to get rid of the nightclubs, I don’t know. But that’s what we had. So John comes by and says, “so and so and so and so.” And it makes sense, all these people are going to get thrown out. So we talk to Hulan Jack. Some guy was involved, in fact with the Baker’s Union, isn’t that funny. It’s not like we were friends or anything, I just knew him. And they knew Hulan Jack, and they knew the guys that owned the nightclub. And he says to Hulan Jack, “This is a terrible thing, what’s the point? you know.” And Hulan Jack says, “Well I don’t want to just kill the playground, cant you get me an alternate site? So we can still build the playground.” So John Lawrence, on his own, goes looking for four or five sites. He was a hustler, oh yeah, the guy was a brain, but uhh he was terrible. His thoughts, like with the Jews, oh my, he was so terrible. So he’s telling me about it and he says, “ down the corner here, there is a playground.” We have a playground; I think LaGuardia built it, 75’ by 100’. He says “ maybe we could tear these buildings down to the corner and we could enlarge it there.” Now he’s telling me, but he’s got like 5 sites. So I go out with him and around the corner there’s a guy who owns a market, who’s actually related to me. Would you believe that? So I look at the site and it does make sense. We do need a playground and what are you going to do? It was a tough decision on my part because I knew the guy. But it made sense and if he was willing to substitute somewhere in the area here, it looked good. So I call up Nick Rossi, who was the president of the Civic League. And I say, Nick, so and so and so, we can get a playground on the corner there. He says “ okay I’m going to put out some petitions asking people to sign them.”
VW: Where is the location again, remind me.
AD: Right here. The Thompson street playground. It’s here now. So I ask him for the petitions and ask if I can put it under the Lower Manhattan Civic League and if not, I’ll just put them under my name for that matter. I must have been a cocky son of a gun. No, but we were friends. He said, “ No Tony, it’s okay, do whatever.” So I got petitions and went down Spring Street to Sam’s and Al’s and the candy store, all those places. I had a bunch of petitions for this place. That’s what I cared about. He had all these other sites, west 4th, someplace else, I don’t know.
VW: So this entailed tearing down buildings?
AD: Oh yes, but there was nobody that lived there. There was a stable, a grocery store, and the one going in Sullivan was a garage; I used to park there- my truck, once a week.
VW: So it would entail the city buying the property from the owners?
AD: They would condemn it, oh sure, condemn the property and take it over for public use.
And I remember John being in here, John Lawrence, and saying, “Jesus, you got all these petitions, but how are you going to propose it in the board? How are you going to do it?” I said John, I’m chairman of the Parks and Playgrounds Committee. It never hit him.
VW: He didn’t know that?
AD: No, as smart as he was. He must have known it, but he never thought about it maybe. I said John, I happen to be chairman of the parks committee. I remember his face looking at me, you know. And I said, get some people, like from the building on 4th street. They came to the meeting. See, so that night, at the park library; we used to always meet there, the community board, one room there. So they were there when I got there, with signs, “Save our homes,” they didn’t want to be chased out. They lived on 4th street you know. So we got inside and I proposed this playground, and they went along. The board went along. And then we sent it down to Hulan Jack. And he was a friend, so I called him and said, when do we set up a meeting, when can we come down there and propose it? This was before Hudson Street. He said all right and gave me a meeting. And John, I hate to talk about him, but he was so much trouble with everybody. No one could stand him.
VW: So anything with his name on it was…
AD: Ohhhhhh yeah. So he comes in, he’d be here everyday. So I say, I set up a meeting with Hulan Jack for next Tuesday. And I’m up at the restaurant eating and while I’m eating, he comes back in. And he said, “yeah I just called up Louis De Salvio, Senator Marrow, but they wont come to the meeting.” So I turned and said who the hell told you to call these guys up. Because he was persona non-grata, so who the hell would come to that meeting? He wasn’t good at running the operation. As smart as he was, God I wish I could be as smart as him, the guy’s brilliant, but he stinks. I say why’d you do that. Of course they’re not going to come. He calls them and he acts like he is running the show. And they wont go where he’s involved. So I had to call up Marrow and De Salvio, they were friends of mine, I said come to the meeting and so and so and so and so. That’s just how it was. And I remember Hulan Jack saying to me, “alright Tony, let me get the playground down below at first that I promised father McManus and then we’ll get to this one.” So we go the playground. And then somebody came to the board meeting. I’ll be damned if I remember his name. If I look back 40 years; Manson or Munson. He was on the City Planning Commission, and he got up to make a speech. I wasn’t chairman yet. I was chairman of the Park’s Committee, that’s like another story- Leo Colacis appointed me. Shirley Hayes was chairman before me. He gave it to me. Well, we were for him when we got elected. It’s all about politics. I said, no don’t be silly. He said no, “ you should be chairman of a committee, how about parks?” Shirley, she’s a nice lady Shirley. Uh, who’s going to fill her shoes? I really filled her shoes.
VW: Did she retire from the post?
AD: No, she remained on the board. Shirley did something that I don’t think anyone remembers. When we changed the zoning in 1960. Now I’m digressing, where were we?
The playgrounds whatever…
VW: No, that’s all right.
AD: We were working with city planning to change the zoning. I was chairman, I don’t know, I was something. I headed the delegation. And we went downtown, and they were all new. So when I set the meeting with James Felt from city planning, they were changing the zoning- the 1916 zoning- which was loaded with amendments and everything. They had a new zoning resolution around 1960, 1959. That’s right, it’s all about the same time, Jesus Christ. And so we were going to go down and we were making our own proposals, like, 3rd street should be a C3 instead of C1, or vice versa, whatever. So we had a number of changes, including one of the changes that saved little Italy, which I could talk about, because we saved SoHo, the West Village. Little Italy, under the new zoning of 1960, under James Felt, they were going to zone it M1, just like SoHo. West Broadway to the Bowery, Bleeker down to Canal. See now, when I saw that, I said, what are you nuts? Italian people live there. People live there. It’s a residential neighborhood. So when I went down there with the delegation, I went to the most precious blood on Mulberry- Saint Patrick’s. At the time, there was one guy, Fred Seekert, a clerk, who I think is still down there, with the parole, not the Parole Board, the Jury.
VW: County Court?
AD: Yeah, Goodman is the boss. Yeah, when you go for Jury notice, whatever. He’s like a lawyer there. I think he’s still there, must be 20 years. I saw him, in fact, I got him to come to a couple board meetings, but then he never showed up. I said to him, they’re going to change the zoning here, you cant have no residential buildings and so and so. So when we went downtown, it was the village group. And we were debating with James Felt, I would bring up, what are you doing in Little Italy, you know? It was really me you know?
VW: Why were they going to do that in the first place?
AD: How should I know? They probably thought the area was dying and there should be more factories. I have no idea. They make mistakes. I could tell you, there were mistakes in the West Village here, where I went for housing, across the street from Jane J Williams Park. The Parking lot and all that, and they said, “ that area is the graphic arts center, you don’t want residential, it’s a dying thing.” Dying my rear end.
VW: Right
AD: West Village…what are you talking about? See.
VW: So when you raised the little Italy questioning….
AD: Oh yeah, when we went back again, like another meeting, he decided to change little Italy to C6, right, yeah C6. C6 allows residential buildings; it’s almost an industrial area. Its not like C1, limited retail, it’s almost an industrial area, but it allows residential buildings. All right, that’s one thing. Today, if you go into little Italy, when you walk along Houston Street, you see all new buildings. Go along Prince, where the supermarket is, I think its Prince and Mulberry, go to Elizabeth and Hester street, which is Chinatown, they got a brand new building, I’ve just seen, condominiums and all that, LIRA housing, which is on Spring Street, built by Little Italy Restoration Association, LIRA. Yeah, they were responsible for that. But none of this would have been possible if 35 years ago, this piece of salami hadn’t said, hey, what are you doing? It’s the wrong thing! And also because of Robert Weinberg, the first chairman of Community Board 2.
VW: He was the first chairman, like when it was created?
AD: Yeah, 1952, first chair, Robert, who became a good friend of mine.
VW: He’s an architect right?
AD: Oh yeah, 400 Madison Avenue. He had a big firm. Oh yeah and he was in city planning before that. Bob was a good friend. When he passed away, I remember, I made a speech at his memorial. And his wife came over and asked me if I had a copy. But at the meeting Bob used to come representing the village. He was an expert. And he said, “What about NoHo? above Bleeker, that area?” He was trying to get that changed, that’s an M zone too. See. And I remember Bob coming in here one day saying, “Tony, what power do you have over the City Planning Commission? I proposed the other side. They didn’t do anything. You got Little Italy changed.” And it’s true.
VW: So did you help him get NoHo changed?
AD: Oh no, it never happened. Because of the zoning, uhhh, we never really debated it. Sometimes you have a position cause you live in an area, you know. He was more connected to that area. But Shirley Hayes, at a meeting, Shirley won’t remember this-what do you think of that! I bet you if she would remember this. We had a discussion about the village zoning, see, and it was R7, our proposal. So we’re in the room, ah its funny, I wonder if Shirley would remember this? But I remember it, and we’re going around and everyone’s saying R7’s all right and this and that and she stands up, and says, “Why don’t we go for R6?” It’s true. And before you knew it we were going for R6!
VW: And what would be the difference between the two?
AD: Oh, the height of the building. R7, R8, R10, you can go like 50 stories. But the village area is R6.
VW: Because she stood up at that meeting?
AD: Oh yeah I don’t know if she knows that, she should remember it. But I remember it.
VW: And there was a lot of support for it once she proposed it?
AD: Oh sure, it made a lot of sense. We’re looking for lower buildings. Everybody’s against skyscrapers, except for on the avenues. Shirley did a lot of things, I wonder if she remembers.
VW: Oh yeah I’d love to find out, we definitely want to track her down and talk to her.
AD: Yeah cause then you see from different sides.
VW: Yeah, that’s pretty much what we’re finding, that different people will tell a different part of the story.
AD: Oh yeah, somebody will tell you his story and it sounds like he beat the expressway or he chaired all the meetings.
VW: Oh yeah, everyone has their own account.
AD: I told you the story about Cerevali, the priest. Did I tell you that?
VW: Yes, you did.
AD: Here I’m sitting with Helen Giltsen, big woman, you should see her. She lives over in the Fulton houses, but she lived in the St Bernard’s area in the West Village. That was a big Irish neighborhood. So when they built the housing up above, some of them moved from the West Village. When I was a kid that was like all Irish.
VW: Really, in that area of Horatio and Jane St?
AD: Oh sure, a lot of Irish people. All along the west side going up the Hudson. They had their gangs too. The Dusters and all that.
VW: The Dusters, right.
AD: Sure and here I am sitting in a room in Jane Jacob’s house with Jane, who is saying, “We need an umbrella organization, we can’t do the west village here.” Oh and that’s about 60. And so she’s asking “who should we select?” And so finally she says, “Tony, would you be the president of the so and so and so and so?”
VW: Wow, great.
AD: Yeah, so I was the uh, even though they did all the work.
VW: Well everyone had a role.
AD: We do, we do, we all had a role. They worked hard but I went over there. And I remember once we met, I think with Leavitt, and he was like, what the hell was he? I don’t know, he was up in Albany, under the governor and he came down and we met him on the corner of I think 11th St. to discuss the project and Jane was there and Rochelle Wall, Stolea, all those people that were involved. And Bill Bowser. Oh Bill, forget about it. I used to see Bill walking around cleaning off lampposts. 30 years ago! And I’d be delivering bread. You stop him on the corner and he’s cleaning up the lamppost.
VW: Amazing. All right I think I must stop us for now. Can we pick…
AD: Did I tell you they called me and they’re doing, I don’t know what they’re doing, a calendar?
VW: The Village Nursing Home?
AD: The Village Nursing Home, 20, 25 years they’ve been doing it. I think it’s a calendar: “Legends of the Village.”
VW: Really! No, I didn’t hear about this. This is great.
AD: He’s telling me, Legends of the Village. And I said, Legends of the Village? Whoa.
VW: That would be you!
AD: It’s true. You talk to people and I don’t like to ask questions.
VW: What do they want you to do?
AD: So they interviewed me; like you are. They asked me questions and then they said, would you write something. 100, 120 words. Something like that and I did that. I said, which story do you want me to talk about? I’m dead; I don’t know what you want me to talk about! So I kind of combined them into a general thing like what we were involved, like we say the West Village, we say this, like how much could you, ya know? And they seemed to be happy with it. And then they called me about 4 days ago, uh I forget his name-the guy that’s been working on the project- and said “we need a picture of you and could we come and get it and so and so and so” He says, “I have an idea. Can we do it in a tall building?”
VW: A tall building? With a view? He didn’t want to come take your picture here?
AD: No, well his thinking was that I was involved in a number of projects where we saved an area, so it’d be nice to take a picture looking down on one of these areas. What do I know, I don’t know.
VW: His vision
AD: He told me I do. So he says, so from the conversation, it ended up the arch, the Washington Square Arch. He says, “The arch is it!” So maybe he wants to take South Village, I don’t know what he is doing.
VW: Have you done it yet?
AD: No, Wednesday. So he says, “Who should I call up? The Commissioner? To get approval to go up to the arch.” He thought we needed like a permit or something. I said come on, you kidding? The commissioner? I’ll see him this afternoon.
VW: Right I’ll get the key, or do you already have it?
AD: No, but it was funny, I was meeting them that day, Benepe and Cafaro, the whole bunch. So I’m standing there with Cafaro and Smitty and Casey, and we’re all standing around and I say to Cafaro, who’s the boss actually now, he’s back.
VW: Who is he?
AD: Jim Cafaro, he runs the whole district. Casey went back to Washington Square. During the summer he took over the course of the pools. Cafaro went to run the pools, with Jerry, a big tall guy who’s terrific. We had the youth Olympics last week, and what’s her name, Gail, at the last minute, couldn’t get a basketball court for the kids.
VW: You didn’t have a basketball court? Is that what you said?
AD: We had a basketball court in the playground but we needed a little one, you know for the little kids. So at the last minute I call up Jerry and the next morning he comes running with one and saves the day. You know, so I kind of get along with him. In fact I just talked to Midge, you know Midge?
VW: No
AD: Well him and Smitty basically run the park. But Casey is supposedly over them, it’s very confusing.
VW: Did you see the article in the city section last week about Casey?
AD: In the Times? Yeah yeah, they called me on it I think. I kind of de-friended him a little bit. I think it came out in the story. Casey is trying to do a good job, but I guess some people, you just rub the wrong way. Sometimes they just don’t agree with you. And if you’re involved in the park for 6, 7, 8 years and somebody new comes…
VW: Yeah, it’s hard to accept a new person.
AD: Yeah and not only that, but you think like, I’m it. Other guys let you do things but with him its like “No you can’t do that” Before you know it he’s got an argument. Shelly Davis, do you know who she is?
VW: No, but I think that was talked about in the article. Is she a volunteer?
AD: Ohhhh they want to kill her. She called every politician. I got calls from Duanne’s office, the Borough President’s office.
VW: Oh my God. Asking what’s going on down here?
AD: Yeah, so now they call me and if I were to say, yeah he’s terrible, I don’t know what’s wrong with him…
VW: You would have been out. But you didn’t say that.
AD: No, I wouldn’t say that.
VW: Yeah he’s a nice guy. He’s very well intentioned.
AD: Yeah I said he’s trying to do a job and there are always two sides. And there was a little discussion, but the park belongs to the Parks Department. And I told Shelly cause she called a number of times. I said, I cant go in there and start planting flowers on my own. There’s got to be some direction. Some order.
VW: Right, he’s a fact and she’s got to accept the fact and work with him.
AD: But they don’t like him. They would rather get rid of him. And that’s a couple of times. He had a fight with a lady; something with a phone. Did I tell you this story?
VW: Yeah right with the dog run. She threw a phone at him or he threw a phone at her. No she threw her cell phone at him I think. That’s what it was. Now another thing I wanted to ask you was about photographs that you might have. Or papers that you might have, that we could look at and talk about. Another thing that we are doing in our project is collecting…
AD: You mean old photographs?
VW: Yeah, I mean if you would even let us copy them or…
AD: You know, I don’t really keep stuff, except by accident. No, but I got photographs there that I could go back. There are people I don’t recognize, like at the Greenwich village house; the Greenwich village Association used to rent it. We had no connection really. But the meetings we used to hold. Ohhh, I chaired more meetings there, and candidate’s night, where we had John Lindsey running in at 12 O’clock to make a speech, oh who else, Batista, all these guys that ran for mayor, we used to have candidate’s night and we’d have everybody running. And the republican, my friend McNeil Mitchell, every year June or July, somebody would show up like Whitney Moore Seamore, and what the hell was the other guy’s name that ran against Pazinanti? All of a sudden, they had to get active for two months. See they’re going to run in September for the primary, so all of a sudden you had to build a reputation.
VW: So they are going to all these meetings, and speaking?
AD: Oh sure, that was the main organization at the time. See the GVA was the one that had a town hall meeting the first Tuesday of every month and it was a civic nature. I mean commissioners would come, that was the organization that ran the meetings. I think in time, the community board kind of killed it.
VW: When did the GVA stop?
AD: Maybe 20 years. The last president we had was, oh my God, I forget. I’ll remember but…
VW: So you might have photographs and things to look at?
AD: I might have photographs of a meeting. The GVA or the police captain from the 6 will be there.
VW: Because we’re collecting stuff like that. So if there is anything you’re getting rid of.
AD: Well I’m not getting rid of them, but someday if I got time, I’m going to look through them. I must have 100 pictures, at least. You know why, because Harry Fields, you don’t know Harry. Harry Fields was born on the Lower East Side, went up to Hells Kitchen -Saint Ray Fields. On 10th avenue and 42nd St there’s a Catholic Church, which is connected to Saint Anthony’s; the most precious blood. And Harry is Jewish of course. He was the only Jew that fought with the Catholic kids. Not fought with them, but fought for them. He lived in the neighborhood, so he was part of the church, poor Harry. So then Harry moved to the village around 3rd St. 4th St. and West Broadway. And Joey Adams and his wife, Cindy, actually met in Harry’s, uh where he lived or whatever. They were shacking up together. He used to tell me, oh yeah, he knew Joey very well. And once Joey came down here, when Harry was alive, oh I could go on and on with these stories. And Harry was tough. Tough, good looking guy. He was a photographer. Not the brightest but he was a street guy. So one day he moves to Sullivan Street. 145 I think, 143 actually. And downstairs Harry had a store and he used to put photography in the window and everybody that got married or christened or whatever, the church would call Harry. He was part of the neighborhood. He would photograph the nurses at Saint Vincent’s, Our Lady of Pompeii, whatever. They’d call Harry, and Harry was funny. I could go on and on with Harry stories. Sometimes he messed up the pictures. You know he had a big camera and he’d forget to put the bulb in it. So everybody is posing and he’d go, “oh up uh one more.” So it became a joke everybody would say “One more.” But everybody knew him. All the kids knew him because when they were baptized or christened or whatever, they went to Harry. So if you walked down the street with Harry, he was a big shot. In fact he once, walking around with the Saphio, the congressman, it was Election Day, and they are walking around the neighborhood shaking hands. And the people are saying, “Who are all those people with Harry?”
VW: And is he no longer with us?
AD: No. I buried Harry, I really did. I got to go visit him in the Jewish cemetery. He was always proud he was Jewish, its too long do you want me to tell you how he died and everything?
VW: I’m actually going to have to go but we’ll talk. It’s a great story.
AD: Cause he died in his house. He collapsed in his house. See, Harry would come here everyday. I would see him everyday and when I went to meetings Harry would come.
VW: And take pictures?
AD: Right, and if someone important was coming, he’d take pictures. And he’d get them in the villager. If you go back in the villager 40, 50 years, I’m in more pictures than anybody that’s ever lived. And Harry would be there and most of these pictures were all Harry’s because he was always there.
VW: And what happened to all his pictures that he owned when he died?
AD: Some guy’s holding them. It’s pathetic because they’re really my pictures. I took care of Harry.
VW: Where did they go?
AD: It’s a long story; he had some money. He was going with an Irish girl who had some money. You know, and she wanted to move to Florida and she wanted to pay for him to go. Everything, you know? Poor Harry. When it comes to etiquette, he didn’t have uh, you know what I’m saying. And she was very embarrassed. She was very dignified, she worked for the phone company, she had stocks, you know? But finally, he didn’t want to go down there, he wanted to stay in the neighborhood. And she would have paid for everything. So she left him one share- four or five thousand- she had brothers or whatever, you know when she died. And I was holding the money for him, safe here. And he got sick. And the day he got sick, he didn’t show up. I’m downstairs making biscuits. 9 O’clock 10 O’clock 11 O’clock, I said where the hell is Harry? I thought maybe he went to the Bronx to buy paper. There was a place there he used to get it real cheap. And I call his house, no answer; he lives on Sullivan Street. And I called Carnalli, who had a grocery store there; I went to school with him, way back. And I said did you see Harry today? He hadn’t seen Harry. I said something is wrong. He always came everyday, you know? I called his house, no answer. So finally, I called the police, they knew Harry, I said could you send someone over to the house I haven’t seen Harry, I’m worried. And then I called Carnalli again, and said run up with them let them in. Ten minutes later I call Harry’s house and they answer. They said “Harry’s here on the floor, he couldn’t walk.” He couldn’t walk from here to there to pick up the phone. His kidneys had failed.
VW: So he was still alive?
AD: Oh yeah, so they took him to the hospital, and I’ll go over there later when he gets through, you know, 5, 6 O’clock. So I went there that night and they got him all set up and so on and so forth, and he never really got better, but I was paying his rent from his money. And he had a store around the corner from here. The apartment might have gone first. No, the store went first. I cancelled the store. I was paying like $100 a month. Before you know it money was coming down like nothing. So then I cancelled the store on Sullivan, I’m sorry, the house where he lived.
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