Henry Hope Reed: An Oral History interview

An Oral History Interview with Henry Hope Reed
Conducted by Anthony C. Wood
June 11, 1998

 

SIDE ONE

ACW: I was going through some of my notes, and put together a list of questions of things that, actually, over the years I've wanted to ask you about.

HHR: To what end is this, by the way?

ACW: To what end, ultimately? A couple. I've been loosely researching the history of the preservation movement in New York for, really, fifteen years. I began by doing a series of interviews (by now fifteen years ago) with Harmon Goldstone and Geoffrey Platt, the early chairmen.

ACW: This all started because I was interested in the history of the preservation movement. I moved here twenty years ago and wanted to get involved in preservation. As a historian, I like to know what I'm getting involved with, so I said, "Let me go find the book that will tell me about preservation in New York." Of course, there was no book, so I started to do a little research through these oral histories. I continued that, and have now been working partially with a Village group to begin to do some detailed work on the history of preservation in the Village. But what I'm ultimately working toward is probably, initially, a journal article on the history of the preservation movement in New York City, starting not at the beginning of time. I've tried to find a thread I can follow back from the passing of the law. So I'm not looking at early preservation efforts at the turn of the century. The earliest thread I've found is the beginning of things with Talbot Hamlin's list that was started in the early 1940s, just before World War II; all stirred up, I understand, by Moses and the threat to Castle Clinton. That stirred up some early ferment, according to my research.

HHR: That's true. It isn't exactly putting a road through Washington Square.

ACW: That's right. That, actually, indeed, predates that. That goes back to the mid-'30s.

HHR: Yes. When Raymond Rubinow was so active.

ACW: Ray was. That issue is one of those issues -- You know, these issues never go away. The earliest I think we found of a mention of the Moses version --

HHR: I think I first met Ray -- I guess I met him on a walking tour of Central Park.

ACW: But Ray was involved -- That was during the time of the 1950s version of that fight, but that battle actually goes back to 1935, I think. Thirty-five or '36 was the first --

HHR: As early as that, yes.

ACW: It was one of those projects that kept going and being brought back. What I've tried to look for is some activity, a string that leads back to the Landmarks law. The earliest string I can find is that the activity in the early '40s, where Talbot Hamlin had basically been recruited by the Municipal Art Society by Jacques Kahn to look into this question of saving old buildings, triggered by Moses and Castle Clinton. They started to actually put a list together to see what there was to work with, and the Municipal Art Society began to crank into this. Then the war came, and the Municipal Art Society, in its wisdom at that time, seemed to draw off this emerging interest in old buildings, and immediately decided they wanted to get a jump on post-war planning in New York. They knew it would happen. They knew the war would end and there would be a whole rebuilding, so they dropped interest in preservation, focused on this new subject, and it wasn't until -- once again, according to my research -- 1951, when, largely prodded by the threat and loss of the Rhinelander building on Washington Square North, that MAS kind of remembered this old, beginning.

HHR: Yes, there's [ ? ] -- that's true.

ACW: That, then, triggered this list-making activity, and it's the list-making that --

HHR: Alan Burnham, I remember him, and I remember the Municipal Art Society.

ACW: Now I believe, from my research -- the first mention I found -- I've been going through the old minutes of the Municipal Art Society, from about the '20s on. It gets real interesting, of course, in the early '50s, when things start to happen. The first mention I found of you in the old MAS minutes was back in October of 1954, and it was in connection with the Monuments of Manhattan [ ? ] --

HHR: That's right.

ACW: -- which I guess was to open in January or February.

HHR: We were talking about that. Alan Burnham I remember being at the meeting, the board meeting. Alan Burnham, Agnes Gilchrist was present -- She was [ ? ] -- because she wrote a book on an architect. It was a biography of an architect -- I've forgotten the name.

ACW: Did you interact much with -- As I understand it, the guy who headed the committee began to do this list --

HHR: Ed Steese.

ACW: Ed Steese. Do you have many memories of Steese?

HHR: Well, Steese, his big thing -- See, he'd been working in the office up at Thomas Hastings, and he put a book together on Thomas Hastings, a book I think of speeches or something, the writings of Thomas -- not very ambitious. He didn't come out violently anti-modern or anything like that, but he was obviously -- he was no modern, and he was active in the Century. So that was that period in time.

ACW: Yes, there is a heavy Century link, I noticed.

HHR: Well, I don't think as much as they like to think it is. I'm not so sure about that. Because I remember Harmon Goldstone. Oh, lord.

ACW: I know Harmon was considered by many to be rather timid at times.

HHR: Well, it wasn't that. When we put on that exhibition in '55 -- See, Ed Steese, and a man named Snyder, an architect known as Ducky Snyder (I don't know what his first name was), were members of the University Club. The University Club, I think, is more important than the Century, as far as I'm concerned. They put out that exhibit in '55.

ACW: Now is that how you got pulled into that whole crew? Curating that exhibit? Or did you get involved somewhat prior -- ?

HHR: As a result of the exhibit I got -- I remember joining the Municipal Art Society -- the chief one was Ed Jones, E.B. Jones -- because he and I started the walking tours together. I had known him at school; he'd been a classmate of my brother, so we renewed our friendship, thanks to this exhibition.

ACW: Now as I understand that exhibition, it was that this list they had been making at MAS -- this index of architecturally important, or historically important buildings -- that that was kind of the basis? Then you took buildings from that list, or -- ?

HHR: I don't think it necessarily -- You took prominent architects automatically, because they had the material, you see. I remember, for example, painters that would be [ ? ] -- "his widow wear an herb" -- sold herbs. I remember driving up in Connecticut, driving -- that was the beginning -- that was an exhibition at the Municipal Art Society. We got -- the key thing -- Everett Post, who was the great-grandson of George Brown Post, had all this material in a barn in Cold Springs Harbor. So I went out, and the key thing we found was going down to get the [ ? ] -- material from --

ACW: Ah, yes.

HHR: It was packed in barrels. See, in the old days, instead of boxes, which we have today, there were barrels. They'd been sent there in the '20s and they hadn't been opened. I was he first one to open them. You see, they had this whole collection of [ ? ] -- material. It was there. That was the major, staggering -- you know -- At that time they -- Now they're very proud of it, but in those days they couldn't have cared less.

ACW: Well, I get a sense -- and this is the first question I had for you -- I get a sense that that exhibition, The Monuments of Manhattan, must have created quite a stir at that time? And if it did --

HHR: Whitney North Seymour was president of the Society, and I think he -- I'm quite sure of that. But this man -- Ed Steese and Ducky Snyder -- [ ? ] -- Ducky Snyder was more University Club, and he used to be at the University Club, at what they call College Hall. It's an enormous building, anyway, as you know, and [ ? ] -- week it was closed to the public. But the AIA had a meeting that year, a dinner there, and I'm wondering -- I don't know whether it was the New York chapter or whether it was national.

ACW: Was it AIA, or could it have been the SAH, because I know --

HHR: No, it was AIA.

ACW: -- the SAH also had something going in town at that time, because there was a special tour --

HHR: No, this is [ ? ] -- AIA, this is the important thing. This is the important thing, because I remember Larry White being there. I remember him. Of course, I'd seen him just borrowing stuff from his office, you see. So it was -- Bailey came down from New York, and he had somebody help me with it, you see. He borrowed a -- he even had the statue. The thing I remember is that the City of New York had the plaster model for the statue of Hunt, that was at the top of Hunt's building, the Vanderbilts. The stone version is out in -- is it Harbor Port? It's at the Vanderbilt house, the Howard Vanderbilt house on the island.

ACW: Oh, okay. I don't know the name, but I know that's where it is.

HHR: That's where it is. So we got the plaster model from him, and little things like -- I assume he still has them -- like models of Chinatown, at the [ ? ] -- because he'd known the French sculptor, Barye --

ACW: There was a reference in the Municipal Art Society minutes (and things mentioned in the minutes don't necessarily happen), of a man named David Robb, from the Fine Arts Department at the University of Pennsylvania, who wanted to record the exhibit, somehow, on microfiche. Do you know if that ever happened? Do you have any memories of that?

HHR: I made a list and I gave it to the public library, and somebody swiped it. [ ? ] -- may have it. I made a list of it. It was such a job.

ACW: This is hard to read, but this is a printout --

HHR: This must be mine.

ACW: This was in the MAS archives on microfilm, at the Archives of American Art. Why don't you make a copy of it? I also had --

HHR: I can just go down there. Yes, I remember the City Hall. We had mounted that thing. That came from the New York Historical Society. Oh, Francis Keally, I remember him. Hamilton Grange. Francis Keally did the Iranian embassy in Washington, and he did the modern Brooklyn Museum. That's by Francis Kealey.

ACW: What was the order? Did I read somewhere that there was an order of buildings that had been lost? Some that were threatened? Was there a theme? Do you remember how the exhibit was actually laid out?

HHR: Oh, chronologically. Well, I see here they all are. This is it.

ACW: Okay. Good.

HHR: I signed it. [ ? ] -- I must have been the one to type it.

ACW: I can't imagine --

HHR: I think that was probably Art Historical or Columbia, Avery, and the Public Library [ ? ] -- We saw the usual ones. You didn't have to go very far, you just took the --

ACW: But this was really the first -- if you saw a list like this today, of a planned exhibit, you'd kind of say, "Well, that's [ ? ] -- "

HHR: It's a standard list.

ACW: But this was really cutting edge.

HHR: Innovation [ ? ] -- stuff existed. Nobody looked at stuff that had been in barrels, or in a house [ ? ] -- former stable or something.

ACW: Oh, we'll go through it. We'll make a xerox before we're done.

HHR: I wrote a pamphlet to this. [ ? ] -- of Manhattan.

ACW: I figure this is it, and if this is all of it, this is once again -- This was, once again, from the archives of American art, where --

HHR: I think I used -- That seal, that's not MAS --

ACW: It's not the MAS seal, it's the seal of the University Club. I also understand -- once again, according to the minutes of MAS -- that at the exhibit they had distributed something like over 1,000 copies of that index they had been putting together, and a list of buildings in Manhattan that they had actually -- there was one version of it that they had ready to distribute, in association with the exhibition.

HHR: And that list was the one that the MAS published, in some form.

ACW: MAS published a variety of versions. One of the things I'm trying to get my hands on is an early copy of that list. The earliest final copy, and the earliest kind of released copy, was done in the fall of '53, and released in 1954, and that was the one, I think, they made copies of for your exhibition.

HHR: I remember getting involved in sort of [ ? ] -- look at it.

ACW: Right, because it was a long process. I wondered if you had gotten involved in helping shape that. Because that was going on for quite a while.

HHR: That's right.

ACW: Steese did it, and Gilchrist, and then Steese again.

HHR: Steese, Gilchrist, Alan Burnham, myself, and I think Ed Jones.

ACW: Did you ever interact with Talbot Hamlin? Did your paths ever cross?

HHR: Oh, I knew him personally, sure. Talbot, I don't think he may have -- He was in the background, but he was putting together that terrible job, when Dean got out a four- or five-volume book on the survey of architecture.

ACW: One of those kinds of compendiums?

HHR: A compendium of modern art, and it was really too much. Who knows, who cares of the book today? Here was a man with all this knowledge, he'd written that book on the Greek revival, when? Forty-seven?

ACW: Well, I remember that he also seemed to be very key in helping organize the Society of Architectural Historians, and getting that effort off the ground. I am just curious -- he's become kind of an important figure in the beginning of this list, yet it's hard to -- I haven't found out much about him.

HHR: Oh, his background -- His father was an outstanding professor at the old school of [ ? ] -- later the School of Architecture, and he wrote a very good, ACWo-volume book on Ormond, H.J. Ormond, so -- ADF Hamlin.

ACW: In talking to Dolph Placzek -- Dolph had some memories of Talbot Hamlin --

HHR: Talbot, because he was hired. He was hired. It was a very amusing [ ? ] -- Dolph, a refugee from Vienna, you see, and he comes in, and talk about -- Dolph was only one of [ ? ] -- Viennese architects. Talbot could talk to him. I remember there was something in German, a play on words beACWeen the ACWo architects -- [ ? ] -- got the job.

ACW: I understand that Hamlin -- according to Dolph's memories, Hamlin was particularly upset by what Moses had been doing. I guess he was particularly upset about that, in Clinton [ ? ] --

HHR: You bet he was, you see. That occupied people.

ACW: Remind me, because I don't know your history. Have you always been in New York? Or when did you get -- ?

HHR: I'm born here, on Washington Square. I was born in the Village.

ACW: And educated in New York City, so you were really here -- ?

HHR: Of course. Then I went out to boarding school and on to college, and then [ ? ] --

ACW: So you were basically, then, back in the city professionally --

HHR: That's right.

ACW: -- early in the '40s? Or later?

HHR: Yes, '40s.

ACW: So you interacted with all these interesting people. I was curious also -- you mentioned Agnes Gilchrist -- she seems to have become an interesting figure. She ran that committee after Steese, then for a while she did that radio show that MAS had.

HHR: Oh, did she? I didn't know that.

ACW: Once again, I'm relying on a written record, and that's not always to be trusted. Does Russell Lynes' name mean much to you?

HHR: Oh, sure. He was editor of Harper's.

ACW: Because he also was involved with this radio show, and seemed to be involved at MAS in the late '40s.

HHR: Russell -- remember him? A very nice man. He was editor for a decade or more at Harper's, where his assistant was [ ? ] --

ACW: No, I never met him.

HHR: They were at Harper's, and Russell had been interested in architecture and things like that, not that he devoted much time to it. But he was fascinated by changing fashion, and the role of taste and things like that. He wrote a book -- several books -- on the history of the modern museum. My first attack on modern art was published in Harper's. I could have murdered him, though, because I wrote the article and he held it for ACWo or three years before publishing it. Well, it was a standard. Well, he was tied in with the Centenary of the AIA, that was in 1957. I wrote the article in '55. Not that anything much came of it. You always think you write an article and the world is changed. Well, no.

ACW: Well, we all know that, right?

HHR: Nobody came rushing up to me, asking for more articles.

ACW: One of the questions I had -- and you might have some memories of this -- this whole list-making process we're talking about, that Burnham and you and others were involved with -- apparently quite a body of information was gathered in that process.

HHR: Undoubtedly.

ACW: In the MAS minutes, once again, there's a reference to -- MAS at one point was thinking of housing this body of information at the Museum of the City of New York, but that didn't seem to go anywhere. Then there was a mention of them trying to -- Avery was interested in housing this body of information, and I don't think it went to Avery. I wondered -- I'm just trying to figure out where, indeed, it might be, or if it ended up going with Alan Burnham, for his book, because I know, ultimately, it I think was the basis for the "'63" book.

HHR: Well, I'm not sure there was such a thing. The key thing is they brought it out on mimeograph, that list. You must have seen that.

ACW: I've seen an earlier one.

HHR: I just remember it was very -- It was relatively modest.

ACW: Oh, yes.

HHR: I think I could recognize it.

ACW: What I'm trying to track down is an earlier version than the one that I've stumbled onto in the archives.

HHR: I haven't seen this list for years.

ACW: It'll give you a blast from the past. The earliest version -- This is the mimeo list -- This is the earliest version I've seen, which is a 1957 version.

HHR: That's the one I recall.

ACW: Because there was a '54 version, I believe --

HHR: That could well be. That could well be. And it's simpler, along that line.

ACW: Right. I'm sure it was just kind of a quickly put together thing, on that one. I know after that exhibit, MAS had an exhibition through me, that I think you ran, according to the minutes, that you were involved with --

HHR: That's right, yes.

ACW: And there was talk of doing some other potential exhibits, and I think ultimately one that came to pass was one in Brooklyn.

HHR: The Brooklyn was Bailey --

ACW: And I wondered, was that -- MAS seemed to have been -- I wasn't sure if that was an MAS exhibit, or if they were supportive, or --

HHR: That was at the Brooklyn Historical, or Long Island Historical, and [ ? ] -- photographs, John Bailey did the photographs, and I did the labeling. That was, in cases, regularly simple. A good exhibit, but --

ACW: It was classical Brooklyn architecture and sculpture, I think was the title.

HHR: That's right. We had a photograph and had it "sealed" [ ? ] -- baseballs --

ACW: And was that considered an MAS involvement, in one way or another? Do you have any memories of it? Because it wasn't clear -- It was talked about --

HHR: Yes, it probably was, (a) because what was her name? Who was the secretary of the Society? She lived in Brooklyn.

ACW: Oh, let me see. I think I may have -- Mrs. Darwin James?

HHR: No, no.

ACW: Then that's a different one.

HHR: Oh, what is her name? We can come back to that. Then there was a lawyer named Loring Livingston. He and his brother were partners and had an office on the Heights, on Montague Street, or something, and had a direct interest in the -- He was active in the Municipal Art Society, I think, and he was also with the Long Island Historical, and he was the one who sort of was the motor.

ACW: I was wondering, just looking at, once again, only a written paper, that with that exhibit in Brooklyn, if my notes are right, happened, I think, in 1956, and it's in 1959 that Otis Pearsall, whom I'm sure you know, going with his efforts -- I was curious whether that exhibit in Brooklyn might have helped stir up --

HHR: Well, it did, because, you see, Clay Lancaster -- We got to know Otis. Otis came to me and asked if we could put the book together, asking Clay Lancaster.

ACW: How did Otis know to come to you? How did that happen?

HHR: Well, I think maybe Otis knew -- Now, Nancy knew them -- who helped me with the walking tours.

ACW: Because one of the things I find interesting is that, as I'm researching this history of preservation, clearly, it's exciting -- anyway, MAS is involved, then Otis gets his stuff going in Brooklyn. The Village, later, gets involved, and I know that in 1959, according to the records, Otis wrote to the MAS president, who was George Cooper Fitch, talking about historic zoning in Brooklyn, and MAS created a little committee to meet with Otis. And according to the records, you were on that committee, Alan Burnham, and, interestingly, Albert Bard, who is also a key figure. And I was just curious if you had any memories of that committee or those discussions, or --

HHR: No. Carl and I met Otis, then the question was who should do it, and I suggested Clay Lancaster.

ACW: And then Clay, I know, did that wonderful book, [ ? ] -- and that all got done.

HHR: That's right.

ACW: Do you have any memories, much, of Albert Bard?

HHR: Oh, sure I do. I'm not "deaf," but he was really deaf. In those days hearing aids weren't as simple as they are today, and poor Albert Bard must have been -- He'd come to the meetings of the Municipal Art Society, and he had a box with the old machinery and what not, and toying with it. He'd turn it up to high and it would begin to whistle, because air gets in -- so at the MAS board meetings he'd be punctuating with this whistle. Walter Lord was very funny about him. In those days they had peanut vendors on the corners, and they had steam, where they baked these peanuts, and they had whistles like this. So he had this great thing about Albert Bard's peanut whistle.

ACW: I know by then, by the late '50s, Bard was in his mid- to late-eighties. I guess he died in 1963, at the age of ninety-six. You get a sense that there was hardly a time when he wasn't --

HHR: I interviewed Bard. I interviewed Bard. I was working with him, and I did a biography of Charles Platt, the architect. Charles Platt had married a Miss Howe, the daughter of Howe Printing Works -- printing machinery, the whole printing -- There's a Howe House, still, on 71st Street, beACWeen Madison and Fifth. Albert Bard was involved with her. She [ ? ] -- wedding or something like that. His memory went way back, then, you see. Is there a place called Black Rock? A [ ? ] -- summer colony on the Connecticut coast? I've been there, I went out to see him -- very stony. It's not a fashionable resort, but very -- He had those memories, you see.

ACW: Did you ever publish your interview with him?

HHR: No.

ACW: Just curious. It's funny -- Because he drafted, and helped the legislation in Albany get passed -- and created the basis of Landmarks Law -- he becomes a key figure in so much of this. We haven't been able to find a photo of Albert Bard anywhere.

HHR: Oh, really? Are you sure -- Let me ask you, because he is a regular at the meetings.

ACW: I know he was a regular for decades. I was wondering if you had any idea if he had left papers, or any sort of records? And he had the misfortune of dying during the newspaper strike, so his obituary is ACWo paragraphs, instead of what it would have been with other timing. But was he taken -- By the mid-'50s -- I've been trying to get a sense of how seriously he was taken at MAS.

HHR: Well, don't forget, one of the things is -- The MAS -- the Municipal Art Society -- the MAS [ ? ] -- modern, and those of us who were into preservation, I can't remember [ ? ] -- organizing an exhibit always very consistent, very detailed -- "What are you doing? What are you this?" and you would explain it to him, and he wouldn't understand. Then I just disregarded him. But then he was extremely persistent. Then when he came to the exhibit, when it was all up, he said, "This is very nice. I didn't know what you were doing." Oh, mother! See, [ ? ] -- a modern. He couldn't understand that.

ACW: Well, that may help explain something. When you look at (and I haven't made it through the last part of the '50s yet, looking at these old minutes) -- but the legislation in Albany is passed in 1956, that would allow the city to have a landmark law. MAS knew about it, Bard pushed it, they were all happy it happened, but then nothing happens until, you know, the '60s, and you kind of wonder, well, what stopped the momentum? There was kind of this momentum, and then it just stopped.

HHR: It truly came out of the exhibition, really, or the walking tours, in a way. Ray Jones and I organized that. You see, even if I do say so, the walking tour is the key device of introducing the general public -- You could go on and on about preservation on paper, and it didn't mean a damned thing. But if you walked with New Yorkers and showed them buildings with which they were maybe familiar, and maybe not so familiar, and gave them some history --

ACW: I'm glad you mentioned the tours, because I was once again looking at the origin of these things, and the first mention I found of walking tours at MAS was in 1955, and there's some mention of Agnes Gilchrist talking about the idea of a walking tour -- from Chelsea to Washington Square -- and the notes it based on a tour that had been arranged some years ago, or some time ago, by Hamlin, which I thought was interesting.

HHR: Could well be.

ACW: Then it goes on, there's a committee that's formed, and they talk about [ ? ] -- in 1956, the idea of the walking tour of Madison, Grammercy and Stuyvesant squares, and then mentioned that you were preparing what was called a descriptive guide, to go with that tour. And I think that probably is the first of the walking tours.

HHR: Ed Jones and I (and it was reported in the Times, the picture was in the Times), I think Whitney North Seymour was the president, wasn't he, then?

ACW: I can't answer that.

HHR: Because he was a great, as far as I'm concerned, a terrific force -- He's a friend.

ACW: And this is Whitney North Seymour, Sr.?

HHR: Yes. Senior.

ACW: I'm still sorting that out.

HHR: But I remember Ed Jones and I were also part [ ? ] -- because he was a part of that committee in selecting --

ACW: Who's this? Ed Jones? That's a name that doesn't ring a bell with me.

HHR: Well, he's a painter, and I had known him and saw him again, renewed the friendship with him, thanks to this exhibition. He was a friend, and was one of the rewards of this exhibition. Very enthusiastic. And he had known through family and so on, known the world of these buildings -- the houses and so on -- because I remember, Ed and I were rather impatient because Agnes Gilchrist did not organize, [ ? ] -- so we just went ahead and organized.

ACW: That explains a little. That's great to hear. Is it through the walking tours that you got -- I mean, you were clearly plugged into Brooklyn, and then later on there was a reference to a meeting early in 1962, when James Van Derpool was down, talking to people in Greenwich Village, about seeking their help in identifying important places in the Village, as part of the research, and notes that at that same meeting you're speaking that night, and Giorgio's speaking that night, so you seem to have been very involved. You were a person who appeared, talking to neighborhood groups. Was that an outgrowth of the work of the tours, or how did you find yourself in that position? I'm just curious.

HHR: I was born in the Village. But I've forgot. These things would be organized, a meeting would be called --

ACW: MAS has seemed to (and I don't mean to have everything focus on MAS, but want to clarify things as I research this), there seem to have been strong connections beACWeen -- or strong interests -- of the Municipal Art Society in the Village, over the decades.

HHR: Well, I think --

ACW: I wonder if that's a key membership thing, board members --

HHR: Well, I think there's a sentimental connection, you see, more than anything. It's the largest group of older houses [ ? ] -- and intact. Modern art, certainly then, had already invaded, had already begun to head uptown.

ACW: The Village was pretty protected, just by [ ? ] --

HHR: Well, it wasn't that. The homeowners and the effort that changed -- well, it didn't change [ ? ] -- but there was that sentimental connection. I know Jones had lived there, and he was a great friend, or student, of a painter. What's his name? I've forgotten. Louis Bouchet, who had done West Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Streets. And, of course, you have somebody like Ruth Wittenberg, and Ray, Ray Rubinow. So that Washington Square, being a locus, you see --

ACW: Sure. That makes a lot of sense. When I look at all the activity that was happening in the '50s, you know, it was clear that in the beginning there was putting together this list, that evolved in the exhibit, then the walking tours. Then there was the Platt program, that kind of grew out of all that, and Whitney North Seymour, I know, was very involved in helping that work behind the scenes, and funding for [ ? ] --

HHR: Well, the key thing was this exhibition and the walking tours.

ACW: Were you involved or part of the discussion when that, then, began to lead a discussion of how do you actually protect these buildings, now that the public was beginning to wake up to this?

HHR: Well, you see, the Mayor set up a temporary commission, and that was in '57.

ACW: That was later. I think that was like '61, I think, was when that was created. There was an interlude there --

HHR: The one of the Mayor?

ACW: Yes. Platt was the --

HHR: Geoffrey Platt. I remember going to meetings and seeing him [ ? ] --

ACW: Well, that didn't happen until -- What happened was you had this authorizing legislation passed in Albany in the mid-'50s. Then there's kind of this period of somewhat silence. Then, at that time, in the late '50s, the zoning was being changed. And as part of the public hearings for the zoning, a number of people -- and Platt was one of them, and Otis was one of them, from Brooklyn Heights -- appeared at these hearings, on the new zoning thing -- If you're redoing the zoning, there should be something in the zoning to protect historic buildings and historic neighborhoods. They kept talking about "aesthetic zoning," and that was being advanced. Finally, James Felt, who was holding those hearings, because he was the head of city planning -- as the story goes -- basically told Geoffrey Platt, you know, that, "I can't put this in the zoning. It's hard enough to get the zoning through. But if you be quiet, we'll deal with this when the zoning's done." As the story goes, the zoning got passed, and in, I think it was, 1960 or '61, MAS gave Felt this big award for the new zoning. And the next day, ironically, he was having lunch with Harmon and Platt, and they got into this discussion about what to do about some sort of Landmark protection, and Felt said, "Well, why don't you write a letter to the Mayor, and I'll make sure the Mayor does something." And out of that grew what was called the Mayor's Commission.

HHR: Oh, is that it? When was that? What year was that?

ACW: That was '61.

HHR: Oh, as late as that.

A: The zoning was passed in '61.

ACW: I have so many dates in my mind, I have begun a chronology, just so I can quickly refer, and we'll see exactly when --

HHR: I wrote a book in '57, with [ ? ] -- Chris Hunter, called American Skyline, and Chris had been very active, because he had [ ? ] -- city planning at Yale, and he [ ? ] -- in New Haven. But he went into city planning, and preservation was very much a part of his outlook. The idea was to restore, not tear the whole thing down. That was the big terror in those days, with urban redevelopment, which had happened to Pittsburgh about a decade before, you see, then the terrible destruction in St. Louis, and so on. So Chris's theme was -- I suppose there were others, but I used the chief one -- the idea of incorporating and improving a city, keeping what you have. Just [ ? ] -- the book --

ACW: Just checking my records, that first Mayor's Landmark Committee, before the law, that was in June of 1961. That was appointed, and that was with Geoffrey Platt as chair; Harmon, who was on that; a guy named Robert Curtis; Robert Dowling; Luther Gulick?

HHR: Robert Dowling was a real estate man who became a big wheel in those days, yes.

ACW: Luther Gulick?

HHR: He founded Sterling Forest.

ACW: Oh, okay. Arthur Holden was on that list.

HHR: Arthur Holden was an architect.

ACW: We found that Arthur did a plan, actually, in the late '40s, for Greenwich Village, kind of a --

HHR: Could well be. Could well be.

ACW: Also, Stanley Lowell was on that. A guy named Clarence McCaliss?

HHR: Clarence Michalis was important. He was chairman -- president and chairman -- of the Seaman's Bank of Savings, and he was the one -- he bought the old assay office, which was next to Federal Hall [ ? ] -- the sub-treasury next to it. There was the lower portion of the assay office, done by York and Sawyer, that if you look up -- four or five stories. That was the assay office. And McCaliss got Seaman's Bank to buy it, then added stories. I don't know what's happened to Seaman's now. Things have changed down there so much --

ACW: Oh, yes, so much has changed.

HHR: -- and Clarence Michalis [ ? ] -- the old merchant's house. Clarence Michalis is driving his wife crazy, spending so much money on the old merchant's house. See, you never -- He's a very sweet man, and the key thing about Seaman's Bank was -- I don't know what's ever happened to it. They had a beautiful collection of prints of ships in the harbor, a very fine collection.

ACW: I think I read about that collection at some point. [cross talk]
Now also on that, McKim Norton, Whitney North Seymour, Sr. --

HHR: Yes, but Kim Norton used to work closely with Tunner. Tunner would have various projects -- The key thing, for example -- Norton have 200 students work on it (it was a combination of those things), and Kim would come up [ ? ] -- and lecture. They were close friends, you see, and Kim was part of the history of city planning, because his father, who had been New York Life in Chicago, being with the key force behind the [ ? ] -- Chicago plan, and [ ? ] -- and his father, I guess it was, was behind the Regional Planning Association, [ ? ] -- out of Chicago.

ACW: ACWo, three last people -- Bethel Webster?

HHR: Lawyer. Well-known lawyer. Beth Webster. Will never forget it, I'm sure --

ACW: In the civic world? Was he a civic figure, or -- ?

HHR: A city figure. Very much so. Beth Webster was -- I don't recall why, but it was a name to be --

ACW: Then ACWo others -- Morgan Whelock, Morgan Dix Whelock and Frederick Woodridge.

HHR: Fritz Woodbridge was an architect. The firm was Adams and Woodbridge, and they were the architects for Columbia. Mrs. Woodbridge was the head of Nightingale Banford School.

ACW: Okay. Well, that committee was appointed in '61, and it was earlier that year that MAS had given its mettle to Felt for the new zoning. So it was kind of this discussion of the zoning, how this immediately started to flow into that. And that, of course, takes us into the early '60s, and one of the things that jumped out in my research is that you're accredited with giving kind of the first non-Manhattan -- also -- walking tour. The first walking tour of Brooklyn Heights, in 1961, for the Museum of the City of New York.

HHR: That's right. What happened was, it was too much for this secretary -- what was her name? You have to get her name, because she held the Society together, you know, that girl. She was one of those Irish extractions --

SIDE ACWO

HHR: What led me into this?

ACW: The walking tour --

HHR: Oh. What happened was, [ ? ] -- the Museum of the City of New York, it was too much for the secretary of the MAS to take it, and Ruth Loud, Ruth McAneny Loud, who had been on the board of MAS, had become head of PR (public relations, whatever) of the Museum, so I took it to her, and she had the Museum do it.

ACW: Okay.

HHR: Then it became more elaborate and so on.

ACW: Right. And didn't it kind of get larger, and more --

HHR: Yes. I had a core of about half a dozen or ten guys, and they were good guys, too.

ACW: We're now in the early '60s, and I just wondered if you had any involvement or memories of -- We're now getting to, of course, the whole Penn Station thing, and the beginning of the demolition, and picketing. Was that anything you were involved with at the time?

HHR: No, I wasn't involved in that. That was run by "moderates." Here were these men who had spent a lifetime, boosting modern art -- which led to its destruction. What a gang. What a gang! I mean, Philip Johnson!

ACW: I know Elliot Willensky was involved with that.

HHR: Yes, Elliott -- I failed -- it was a big mistake. Willenskyand what's his name?

ACW: Norville White?

HHR: Yes. They're both on the [ ? ] -- sat down and got the -- because I had the notes. At the time I was preoccupied writing -- after I'd done the [ ? ] -- book, to go with the "city," you see. Because in a sense I was that, because [ ? ] -- modern, an indirect attack on that policy.

ACW: Well, this whole -- it's interesting with your memories of looking back. If you were trying to identify kind of key moments of key players in the story of the events that ultimately led to [ ? ] -- of the law, clearly, the exhibit you curated was a key moment; the walking tours were key moments. Does MAS deserve a lot of credit? Did it get too much credit for a lot of what was happening there, in your mind? Were there other groups, civic groups, that were kind of logging in?

HHR: No, I don't recall -- maybe local ones, in the Village. There probably was a local one there.

ACW: "Save the Village" was very active.

HHR: Right. Ruth Wittenberg is the one I remember, because she was the most entertaining. I'm sure there were others, but she's the one I remember.

ACW: Because we've seen activity -- If you look at where activity was happening -- Brooklyn Heights, with Otis -- that was a big push, and a lot of energy and political stuff. The Village, a group called "Save the Village," Doris Diether and others were pushing for zoning, and for Landmark --

HHR: We gave the first tour of Central Park, by the way, sponsored by the MAS -- John Bailey was a guy, Charlie Hughes, he may have been --

ACW: Oh, I remember Charlie Hughes.

HHR: Charlie Hughes. We gave a tour -- That's where I met Ray Rubinow. Ray never heard of Olmsted.

ACW: But he was a quick study, right?

HHR: Yes. There were some other people who came, as I remember.

ACW: One of the things, as I look at the events, that happened, in the middle of all this stuff, was the threat to Carnegie Hall, of course. Ray was very involved in that. When you read the newspaper articles about the Carnegie Hall effort, it seems as though that wasn't seen, necessarily, in terms of preservation. It was more about the institution and --

HHR: It was important, but it was not --

ACW: The debate didn't seem to be framed as part of this evolution of concern with preservation. It seemed to be more about the institution, the acoustics, and -- Is that right?

HHR: Yes, Is think that's right. I don't know. I'm just trying to think what would be the key things of preservation. The discovery of cast iron. I remember showing -- what's her name? -- a manufacturer's plate. She'd never seen a manufacturer's plate. We had a walking tour of cast iron. Margot Gayle. Margot. And she'd never seen one. I don't think she really discovered cast iron until she came on a walking tour.

ACW: Well, that, of course, is a whole other episode that she was involved with, the whole Jefferson Market issue. And I know that, certainly, once again, was one of these things that heated up at the end of the '50s. But I think as early as '54, Alan Burnham, I think, took Brendan Gill on a tour of the building, that led to Brendan's piece in The New Yorker about the building.

HHR: That could be, because Alan was very good on that. Brendan was invaluable, because he wrote four or five articles on the walking tour. I still remember -- In those days everybody read The New Yorker, or it seemed to be that way. It's not that way [now]. I don't know who reads it today.

ACW: I confess not I.

HHR: But everybody read it, you see. I think more than an article in the Times -- although, on the walking tour -- who came on the walking tour of Central Park. It wasn't -- Gay Talese, I remember coming. People like that. Then there was a very good woman. What was her name? A top writer at the Times. Well, the whole thing -- what happened, you see -- It had part of the career of Ada Louise [Huxtable], because what happened was -- Harmon got irritated because I attacked the modern stuff and praised the old stuff, so Harmon -- it was Ada Louise, she had always written for a magazine called Pencil Points. I don't know if it still exists or not. [ ? ] -- architecture. She'd written for that, and then she was on the staff at MoMA in some capacity. So Harmon got her to organize four or five tours of the Modern, and she later put that into a little pamphlet, which was published by MoMA. Then what happened was that Wade Andrews was called on (I don't know if you know his name) --

ACW: I don't.

HHR: Well, he wrote three or four books on architecture -- New York state in particular, but a national book -- and he had a considerable reputation. He's an old friend of mine, although we parted on the subject of the modern. He went modern, and I said [ ? ] -- separated. In any event, Wade was an authority on the modern, [ ? ] -- write about [ ? ] -- Park Avenue. He could not praise it or something, but the Times killed -- the magazine gave him a kill fee, and killed the piece, and to fill the slot, called on Ada Louise.

ACW: And the rest is history.

HHR: And the combination of the [ ? ] -- by Harmon -- Harmon's irritation --

ACW: So you're responsible for launching Ada Louise --

HHR: I admit that. But now that she's -- what? -- president or vice-president of the National Academy, [ ? ] -- Arts & Letters.

ACW: I didn't know that had happened. She seems to have played -- Let's put it this way. At least the New York Times seems to have played a key role in the early '60s, in the sense -- I've stumbled on wonderful editorial after editorial about the need to do something about Landmark protection. I don't know who was behind that.

HHR: When we first met -- whom I got to know -- I think his name was Captain Mitchell or Captain Middleton. He had a column in those days, a very nice man. He contributed a column once or ACWice a week, and he was very -- he was very generous to me, I remember that, but he had certain ideas, and people read him.

ACW: Okay. Well, I should try and track that down.

HHR: If anybody knows the history of the Times -- Is it Middleton? If I saw it -- that would be when? That would be the '50s. I think in the '50s. An awfully nice man. I mean, he'd tell me, for example -- He'd tell this story, how he hated Corbusier, and one of the reasons he hated him -- He accompanied Corbusier and a young woman -- whether she was from MoMA or heaven knows what -- and in [ ? ] -- car or cab, Corbusier made advances toward this woman. He was furious, Captain -- He said (I think he did), he said, "If you don't stop this I'm going to get out," and he did. He got out. A little aspect of --

ACW: A personal insight into Corbusier. That is something.

ACW: That is interesting. It's very helpful to hear how The New Yorker was "heard," how important that was in understanding --

HHR: [ ? ] -- It may be because the people do recall [ ? ] -- upper East Side or something like that, or they were friends of my family. See, he, about four years running, you see -- because the Times would do one thing -- Nan Robertson, I think, was the reporter.

ACW: That name does sound familiar.

HHR: Nan Robertson was the name, and she wrote on it. Look her up. She was an awfully nice person. I think she had a drinking problem or something, but she was a good reporter, very nice.

ACW: Back, just one last question, kind of on the big picture -- Are there other groups -- Because we know to some extent what MAS did. I know that the Society of the Society of Architectural Historians, on occasion, was in there helping with the list --

HHR: That's right. That's right.

ACW: AIA, I know, once again, at moments helped focus attention. That big meeting I think you were talking about, in the '50s -- I know they had a big gathering in New York, and that kind of triggered -- I think there's a publication that came out around that. Are there others -- I'm just trying to make sure that other players or key people --

HHR: It's funny -- Not that I want to focus on myself, but I was trying to think of -- As far as tours, no. As far as exhibitions, no.

ACW: Yes, you see to have -- that seems to really have launched it and promoted it.

HHR: I did that exhibition for the MAS, at their headquarters.

ACW: When was that? Was that -- ? I haven't gotten that far in the minutes. I believe there was another exhibit --

HHR: That was very elaborate. There were ACWo things. On one floor was the good stuff, and on the lower floor -- that was in the old office.

ACW: Was that the building on 41st Street, that they [ ? ] -- stripped a few years ago?

HHR: That's right.

ACW: Oh, that was a Platt building, too? You know his is a Platt building.

HHR: It is. And that was a Platt building.

ACW: It had a name. It was -- I was there the day they stripped it, with [ ? ] --

HHR: I think that was his own -- That wasn't his own house, because he had a house -- I think it was his own house at one time, then he had a house on Staten Island. But all those papers are at Avery. Not all of his papers, all his beaux arts papers.

ACW: Do you have a memory of -- That last exhibit you're talking about, down at MAS -- I'm thinking 1957.

HHR: I got the "Brenner Award" that year, and the reason I got it was for this exhibition; to do this exhibition.

ACW: Okay. So there we go. Correct that -- wrote that down. And when you say "on the one floor was the good stuff," what was on the other floor?

HHR: Modern, [ ? ] -- modern, and you know, the headache is -- I've run into the problem now, illustration this new book called The Architecture of [ ? ] -- and we have traditional pictures. But now the editor wants contemporary stuff. Well, [ ? ] -- and so on.

ACW: That's a problem that won't go away, right?

HHR: That's a headache. The Brenner Award was that year.

ACW: I know I've seen records --

HHR: I have a list of that. For example, that was different -- [ ? ] -- that I had -- I think I had the models for [ ? ] -- Daniel Chester [ ? ] -- sculpture you see, as well, and some mural decoration. Somewhere I have photographs of it.

A: Photographs of the exhibition, itself?

HHR: Yes, of the exhibition itself. I have the negatives somewhere. Part of the problem was we had a model -- I think it was from the -- you know, the figure of Victory, leading Sherman -- a smaller version of that. I remember a very nice black man from -- who was helping us there, almost [ ? ] -- it was so heavy, you know. Bronze can be very, very heavy.

ACW: I was hoping to find the date of that other exhibit in this book, here, but I didn't.

HHR: The exhibit was '55 --

ACW: Right. And was it close on the heels --

HHR: Well, '56-'57.

ACW: Well, I'm sure as I keep reading the minutes I will find out about it, and we may need to talk again.
I want to ask you just a trivia question, because we're trying to track this down, and you might know this. We've heard references to a survey that was done in 1941, as part of the war effort, that was trying to identify key kind of landmarks or important older buildings in cities, in case they were bombed. It was an interesting list, and we haven't been able to ever put our finger on it.

HHR: Well, the danger, the fear of bombing in New York was -- for one, there is so much wood in your standard housing, far more than in Europe. So that was the real --

ACW: That was the real scare?
Well, look, you've been so generous with your time. This has been very helpful, as we keep --

HHR: I wish I had more.

ACW: Well, do you have archives of your own? Have you kept papers? Or have you just said "enough already?"

HHR: [ ? ] -- Municipal Art Society, [ ? ] -- classical [ ? ] -- I have personal archives. I'll try to find the negatives of the exhibition.

ACW: I was going to say, if you found anything from the exhibitions, or stumble upon an early version of that list we were talking about, that would be greatly helpful to us.

HHR: I kept those things for years, and I'm sure that [ ? ] -- but it looks exactly like -- because I remember --

ACW: The cover?

HHR: The cover. I've forgotten the artist. He did them for the Herald Tribune --

ACW: Bailey.

HHR: Bailey, yes.

ACW: [ ? ] -- long talk about Bailey, getting a long series in the minutes about getting permission to use the drawings. It also talks about -- At one point they put a disclaimer on all this, because there were people who asked questions about would they be liable for legal damages by suggesting these buildings should be saved? So there was a real kind of -- Some people clearly chomping at the bit to go ahead, and other people clearly saying, "We've got to cover ourselves." The usual.

HHR: Oh, sure. After all, the law --

ACW: That's right. That's right. Well, let me make a copy of that for you, because --

HHR: I wish I could give you more information on these, you know. I'll tell you, there used to be a Grammercy Park -- a small paper published by a woman, a very nice woman, who lived near Grammercy Park, on Grammercy Park, and it was a personal effort. It was interesting. That might have some --

ACW: Are we thinking mid-'50s-ish?

HHR: Yes.

ACW: Let me make a copy of this.

HHR: If you could track that -- where you'd find that I don't know.

A: Was it more like a local newsletter, or was it --

HHR: Yes, it was a local paper, a local paper. It wasn't very good. It was printed, by the way, it wasn't mimeographed. It was printed, and illustrated. It might have been as much as eight pages, if that long, you know. She had to sell advertising for it. She had a wonderful -- the people who could remember about --

A: Nan Robertson, the reporter you mentioned? She was at the Times?

HHR: The Times. Now I don't know. It's a chore. You'll have to go through the Times, and good luck to you. Good luck to you. I suppose you have to do it on microfilm.

A: Yes. At least it's indexed. The Villager, the local Greenwich Village paper is not. So it's just sitting there, reading all of the year 1935.

HHR: I don't know about the Village. I'm sure they did -- I wonder -- well, it's [ ? ] -- because there were people then -- John Bailey, the architect, he came down to New York in '55, because he helped with that exhibition at the University Club, and he was also active in the tours, that part -- I'm trying to think -- most of the guys joined when we moved to the City Museum, you see, because that's when they expanded, you see.

A: So you did regularly scheduled tours once a week or --

HHR: During the summer months it was once every ACWo or three weeks. It got very good press, but if we got in the Times, maybe a couple hundred people -- then we'd have -- it was a job.

A: Goodness. Did you write the text, then, for the guides, and then the --

HHR: Yes, I wrote the script text, you see. I'm doing one for the old Merchant's House, a week from Sunday. You know the neighborhood down there.

A: Yes, I do. It's a great neighborhood.

HHR: [ ? ] -- with "Pi Gardner."

A: I know "Pi," she's great.

HHR: I'm working with "Pi." Well, she's cracking the whip, but --

A: What is the tour going to focus on, the neighborhood?

HHR: Yes. It's quite simple. The idea is to focus on the house, you see, and then go a little bit north and a little bit south, and [ ? ] --

ACW: This is kind of like coals to Newcastle, since you created it, and now it's coming back to you -- justice and all that, isn't it?

HHR: I don't know. I was very proud of the pamphlet [ ? ] --

ACW: Do you have a copy of this? Or would you like a copy of this?

A: Can I see it for a second? Because I've never seen it.

ACW: I've still not fully processed -- As I said, I've been sneaking away on occasion, and going through these MAS minutes, the archives, which are fascinating. I've taken -- I don't know -- 100 pages of notes, because any reference to a landmark, to this list, you never know how it all fits together. And the one thing you don't write down (you've probably had this experience) is the one thing you discover, in another context, that you need. So I'm madly there, with the laptop --

HHR: That's right. I'm just thinking, you see -- The virtue of the walks was that that was the way MAS could reach the public. That was the key.

ACW: Well, I remember that, even when I worked at the Municipal Arts Society -- which by now, to say the least, is about fifteen years ago or so -- that even at that time most of the people who really knew us was through the "Waldon" Trust. Sure, they'd heard about the fight for Grand Central and stuff, but the people who really felt something, that was where the rubber hit the road, as they say.
Well, thank you again. This has been a real treat.

HHR: Not at all. By the way, where is Kent Barwick? He comes to town -- you don't have his address?

ACW: I can give you a phone number you can get him at.